price & cheating

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Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 12:38

ezreturn wrote:How can we know what is "cheating" and what are no consider "cheating"?
We sell above the costt ,is that consider cheat also?? I'm confuse :?
Well, how about the starting material? It cost you nothing, so you will make profit selling steel for 1 cap each. It cannot be the production costs you should look at, but the price you can get for you wares. If the cheapest market price for q0 is 135 and people in the forum will pay 130, you cannot sell it for 20.

As said somewhere else (I think it was Knolls) there will not be a general rule like selling for 50% below market price is no problem, 51% below market is cheating. If you would do so, cheaters would use it to always sell (or buy) for 50% below market price.

Elwood

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 13:25

I sold a gas research to a guy a few weeks ago and he didnt have enough money so we decided to sort it out later. Now he sent me a cheap product t o cover the debt so we are even. I m sure there are many deals like that where the contracts are cheap but there s no "extreme advantage" because of other deals. Are people getting insta banned or are they given a chance to explain the "weird cheap contract" or deal? I m sure people (at least bigger companies) wont risk getting banned to save a few bucks. I would appreciate a reply from a mod here. thanks

varg ab

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 20:23

I realize what's behind the cheating rules (no one wants one person to create several accounts and then use the multiple accounts to bolster his main account), but I must say I rebel against the idea of rules in game that's about capitalism.

Under capitalism, you're free to lose money if that's what you want to do. True, "dumping" is generally prohibited, but "loss leaders" are not. But, yes, I don't make the rules, so carry on! :lol:

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 21:19

BobbyBall wrote:I realize what's behind the cheating rules (no one wants one person to create several accounts and then use the multiple accounts to bolster his main account), but I must say I rebel against the idea of rules in game that's about capitalism.

Under capitalism, you're free to lose money if that's what you want to do. True, "dumping" is generally prohibited, but "loss leaders" are not.
I understand what you mean! I really do that.
Yet there a problem becomes obivious. ;)

There is no chance to differ between cheaters (e.g. via multi-accounts) and those who "want to lose money". So if someone sends you a very cheap (or overpriced) contract you cannot know what his real intention is.
And due to this there has to be the rule that forbids "unusual" prices. ;)

@ Varg: Don't worry. If those deals do have prices that aren't too far away from market prices then everything should be fine. But if you trade with very low prices, this might be risky.

@ all: You should always keep in mind: Why should you want to sell someone cheaper goods if you could get more somewhere else? ;)

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 22:54

BobbyBall wrote:Under capitalism, you're free to lose money if that's what you want to do.
Oh yeah. And people play Half Life to die as fast as they can... :shock:

Elwood

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.09.2007, 23:26

BobbyBall wrote:Under capitalism, you're free to lose money if that's what you want to do. True, "dumping" is generally prohibited, but "loss leaders" are not. But, yes, I don't make the rules, so carry on! :lol:
In RL when you start a company up you are using your own money, or money you get from a bank. If you pretty much run the company into the dirt do you think the bank would let you reset and take another loan time and time again? If the money was yours would you just keep bankrupting your company? The authorities call this fraud?

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 04:29

TheSmell, elwood, and GoldenEye -- of course, you are correct, nobody goes into business to lose money, and if one deliberately loses money, that very likely means one is defrauding the investors.

However, sometimes small losses or at least lesser profits are a strategy to gain market share. For example, now that I'm producing my own stones, I see they cost me

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 08:13

[quote="BobbyBall"]If I put a large amount of stones on the market at

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 16:08

about extreme advantage on one side:

1 case, i made it up: i can produce oranges q5 for 0,28 production cost. i can sell it to my partner for 1. i still make profit, right? is this still cheating, if he sells me back apples q5, same quantity, same quality, same price? we can both make juice and than sell it in stores.

i dont see this as cheating or as extreme advantage on 1 side.


and another case: usual price for fruit was around 3 for q0. if i send fax that i buy for 4.0, is this cheating? it could be because i could get it for a lot less, let say for 3.2.

from that point of view was cheating also when Myself start buying coins for a lot bigger price that was on the market. is this cheating?

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 16:41

dajnomir wrote:about extreme advantage on one side:

1 case, i made it up: i can produce oranges q5 for 0,28 production cost. i can sell it to my partner for 1. i still make profit, right? is this still cheating, if he [... ]for a lot bigger price that was on the market. is this cheating?
So whats the use of it ??

You and your partner sell/buy for 1
>>> you sell 5000 oranges for 5000, you buy 5000 apples for 5000
>>> you gain nothing/lose nothing

>>>> you sell 5000 oranges for 15000, you buy 5000 apples for 15000
>>>> you gain nothing/lose nothing

SO WHATS YOUR PROBLEM ????

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 18:08

esvece wrote: So whats the use of it ??
i dont need to produce apples :) problem could be because of the price - if you look only at price it could be consider as cheating

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.09.2007, 19:35

dajnomir wrote:1 case, i made it up: i can produce oranges q5 for 0,28 production cost. i can sell it to my partner for 1. i still make profit, right? is this still cheating, if he sells me back apples q5, same quantity, same quality, same price? we can both make juice and than sell it in stores.
What esvece wanted to say: In that case you made up, you could also sell and buy apples and oranges at 4 caps. It doesn

Guest

Post by Guest » 21.09.2007, 18:13

Look the problem with cheating comes from a very fundamental level. You have:

A) The ability to create an account for free (and reset).
B) Starting cash & materials
C) The ability to shape your own deals.

Those three things together add up to cheating, which - trust me - requires a lot of manpower to stop. The only way to really stop it is to kill one of those three things. And if you do, then you can be more flexible with the other two. Otherwise it all has to be policed.

If you get rid of A), so everyone pays to play, then there would be little to no incentive to cheat as you'd actually lose something on the closure. (Plus they could have just legally bought and sold more coins from the one account to begin with.

If you get rid of B), well it's hard to make money if you can't build anything.

If you get rid of C), that ruins the game because people want to make their own deals.

If you have a magic fix for these I would love to hear it. Seriously. The best I can think of, which I posted here, is some composite of A and C where you can't structure your own deals until you're a premium account. And some have said (with good cause) that they wouldn't be interested in that either.

And that doesn't even stop 100% of the cheating, just like 90-95% of it.

So please, if you have a concrete way with your suggestion or an adjustment of mine, I would really like to hear it. But unless it addresses at least one of those 3 principles, the only option left is the ugly, labor-intensive policing we have now.

Guest

Post by Guest » 22.09.2007, 15:09

Knolls wrote:If you have a magic fix for these I would love to hear it.
if both companies have steady grow, than there must be good deals.

if i stay between 100 and 110 top companies (fixed assets) and both of us grow up every day, than we cannot cheat. it means that both companies are making same profit as others.

Guest

Post by Guest » 22.09.2007, 16:05

B) Starting cash & materials

If you have a magic fix for these I would love to hear it. Seriously. The best I can think of, which I posted here, is some composite of A and C where you can't structure your own deals until you're a premium account. And some have said (with good cause) that they wouldn't be interested in that either.
Knolls


I have an unanswered suggestion sitting somewhere in the forums, that went into this direction, but rather addressed B.

The general idea was to give starting people "virtual" cash and materials. That is, instead of starting with real stone, real steel, and real cash, they start with a stone credit, a steel credit, etc. When they build new buildings, it's taken from these steel, and wood, and stone credits -as opposed to "real" materials in their warehouse, which they could send to a main account-. Same when they expand.
When they want to start producing something, the production costs are taken from their cash credit (the "kapi" cost when they build & expand as well).

To get real money in, they have to be producing something, and selling it to NPCs, or the market, or contracts. It doesn't make cheating impossible, but it makes it way more tedious than send mats, reset, rinse-repeat. While your 3 point analysis is more complete, I long felt the primary root of the issue to be how much wealth you can corrupt out of its original intent of helping you start in the game (hence the tally/credit suggestion).

The obvious drawback of it is that players wouldn't have the liberty of starting directly with exotic buisness setups, such as selling their starting mats for extra cash, or using their money to buy something on the marketplace and resell it higher. It's not that they couldn't do it ever, just not at the start. Because obviously, if the starting tally allowed to buy from the marketplace, they could just buy steel there, and send it to their main account, then reset. Granted, it would be less than they currently can; but it wouldn't address the issue totaly.
It's still flexible enough to start in any product branch they like, but until their production and sales earn them "non-tally kapis", they'd have to find a healthy, self sufficient, profitable business setup, which doesn't depend on other people's contracts or on the marketplace... which is not neccesarly a bad thing either.

I realise this wouldn't address all forms of cheating. One person running two or three accounts and maintaining them could still do so. But there are other ways to address this issue (such as IP tracking, etc). Even then, it brings the limit down to whatever they can actually manage and run, and keep profitable for their main account... instead of how many hotmail addies they can create, and accounts they can reset per day, like currently.

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