I just cant seem to make a good profit, i seem to stay at the same spot i started in.
Ive been producing wood, water and gas (ive been selling the gas at the gas station)
I need some suggestions on how to make better progress.
Making slow progress!!!
Moderator: moderators
-
Guest
I figure wood is netting you a profit of about 4000 per day, maybe a bit more.
75000 / 4000 = 18.75 days return
Corn should probably make you about 5000 (15 days)
Everything else is somewhere below or in the mix. My standard tends to be power, which gives you an easy 12,500 off a build of 142,500. (11.4 days).
Plantations deserve to make more, but I figure it's a mix of there being too many (possibly because it's in the tuturial) and the fact that many of the products (cocoa, sugar cane, coffee) only lead to lousy markets.
Water, oil and gas are probably fine. If I was going to add something to your mix it would be power plants and / or mines.
75000 / 4000 = 18.75 days return
Corn should probably make you about 5000 (15 days)
Everything else is somewhere below or in the mix. My standard tends to be power, which gives you an easy 12,500 off a build of 142,500. (11.4 days).
Plantations deserve to make more, but I figure it's a mix of there being too many (possibly because it's in the tuturial) and the fact that many of the products (cocoa, sugar cane, coffee) only lead to lousy markets.
Water, oil and gas are probably fine. If I was going to add something to your mix it would be power plants and / or mines.
-
Guest
The best way is to don't sell under your real production cost. Most of my money comes form plantation and fruit.
Knolls, the turnover and the ROI (Return on Investment) isn't the same thing.
Wood piece at Q0 :
1 Seed (1 liter of water + 0.01) : 0.08
50 kWh : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
50 liters of water : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
Fix cost : 9 caps
total production cost: 16.08 caps
Selling price : 22 caps
Margin : 22 - 16.08 = 5.92 caps / wood bushels
ROI : 75,000 / 5.92 = 12,668.92 woods bushels => 32 days
Any decreasing of 2.70% in the wood industry, increasing your ROI of 10.00%
Water
0,1 kWh : 0.001
Fix cost : 0.01
Total production cost : 0.011
Selling price : 0.07
Margin : 0.07 - 0.011 = 0.0689 caps / liter
ROI : 180,000 / 0.0689 = 3,050,847.46 liters => 36 days
Any decreasing of 9.85%, increasing your ROI by 10%
Conclusion :
The wood industry is more profitable than the water industry. However, the wood industry is much sensitive than the water industry.
*************************************
I strongly agree for Knolls when he is saying that many products are sold under cost. The thing is for you, to setup company which needs those kind of products and for selling at a correct price, even if you seem expensive for your client.
I justify my price by my serious (I inform them when I am absent), my quality (I spend money to increase the quality of my goods), and for the long term (I won't increase my price if there is a speculation on my activity because it is already include on my price)!
Make your price according to :
- your quality
- your personality (serious, professionnal, information ...)
- fees (I mean commission)
- risk free
- your premium
- your production cost
Those are the component of my price. There is some product made for speculation, some others for long term contract. Define your strategy and negociate your price on the activity.
I am playing since 2 weeks and I have already excellent contact with my clients and a profitable company. Each caps are investing for the benefit of my client.
Knolls, the turnover and the ROI (Return on Investment) isn't the same thing.
Wood piece at Q0 :
1 Seed (1 liter of water + 0.01) : 0.08
50 kWh : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
50 liters of water : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
Fix cost : 9 caps
total production cost: 16.08 caps
Selling price : 22 caps
Margin : 22 - 16.08 = 5.92 caps / wood bushels
ROI : 75,000 / 5.92 = 12,668.92 woods bushels => 32 days
Any decreasing of 2.70% in the wood industry, increasing your ROI of 10.00%
Water
0,1 kWh : 0.001
Fix cost : 0.01
Total production cost : 0.011
Selling price : 0.07
Margin : 0.07 - 0.011 = 0.0689 caps / liter
ROI : 180,000 / 0.0689 = 3,050,847.46 liters => 36 days
Any decreasing of 9.85%, increasing your ROI by 10%
Conclusion :
The wood industry is more profitable than the water industry. However, the wood industry is much sensitive than the water industry.
*************************************
I strongly agree for Knolls when he is saying that many products are sold under cost. The thing is for you, to setup company which needs those kind of products and for selling at a correct price, even if you seem expensive for your client.
I justify my price by my serious (I inform them when I am absent), my quality (I spend money to increase the quality of my goods), and for the long term (I won't increase my price if there is a speculation on my activity because it is already include on my price)!
Make your price according to :
- your quality
- your personality (serious, professionnal, information ...)
- fees (I mean commission)
- risk free
- your premium
- your production cost
Those are the component of my price. There is some product made for speculation, some others for long term contract. Define your strategy and negociate your price on the activity.
I am playing since 2 weeks and I have already excellent contact with my clients and a profitable company. Each caps are investing for the benefit of my client.
-
Guest
I addition to the excellent post of SPB I just want to clarify few numbers on wood and water production (I am few grades above merchant so the numbers can be slightly off but not so much actually). All raw materials are taken at net market prices so there is no cross-subsidizing between buildings:
1) Water
A well in yellow cost you (incl. raw materials) = 180k + 8k = 188,000c
Production cost = 0,02 + 0,1 power = 0,02 + 0,1 * 0,07 = 0,027
Output = 9,300 liter per hour
Profit per hour (depending on net selling price):
At 0,06: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 307c
At 0,07: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 400c
At 0,08: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 493c
This leads to ROI of 25,5, 19,6 and 15,9 days respectively (not bad but worse than power plants and mines)
1) q0 wood
A plantation in green cost you (incl. raw materials) = 75k + 8k = 83,000c
Production cost = 9.00 + 50 power + 50 water + 1 seed = 9.00 + 50 * 0.07 + 50*0.06 + 0.12 = 15.64/kg
PLS note that the water and seed was taken AT THE MARKET cost NOT your production cost. Otherwise you cross-subsidize your different production lines and your profitability calcultation is simply misleading.
PLS note that if you buy power or water at higher prices than in this example your profitability can be really low, so take your time and find the water provider at 0.06/l (which is not so excellent business for him as shown above)
Output: 26,38 piece per hour
Profit per hour (depending on net selling price):
At 20,0: = 26,38 * (20 - 15,64) = 115c
At 21,0: = 26,38 * (21 - 15,64) = 141c
At 22,0: = 26,38 * (22 - 15,64) = 168c
This leads to ROI of 30,0, 24,5 and 20,6 days respectively. This means wood for 20.0 is really poor business and the profitability is completely poor if you place this 20.0 at market not in contract. The prices you see on the market sometimes (20.0 and below) are most probably due to the fact that lot of people simply subsidize (in most cases unwillingly, unconciously
) their wood production by their wells. But such unconcious dumping is a general problem in this game. So my advice is to make sure that every of your buildings is generating proper profit in terms of ROI. I personally don't produce/sell wood below 22.0 a piece.
Just my few cents to increase my post count.
1) Water
A well in yellow cost you (incl. raw materials) = 180k + 8k = 188,000c
Production cost = 0,02 + 0,1 power = 0,02 + 0,1 * 0,07 = 0,027
Output = 9,300 liter per hour
Profit per hour (depending on net selling price):
At 0,06: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 307c
At 0,07: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 400c
At 0,08: = 9,300 * (0,06 - 0,027) = 493c
This leads to ROI of 25,5, 19,6 and 15,9 days respectively (not bad but worse than power plants and mines)
1) q0 wood
A plantation in green cost you (incl. raw materials) = 75k + 8k = 83,000c
Production cost = 9.00 + 50 power + 50 water + 1 seed = 9.00 + 50 * 0.07 + 50*0.06 + 0.12 = 15.64/kg
PLS note that the water and seed was taken AT THE MARKET cost NOT your production cost. Otherwise you cross-subsidize your different production lines and your profitability calcultation is simply misleading.
PLS note that if you buy power or water at higher prices than in this example your profitability can be really low, so take your time and find the water provider at 0.06/l (which is not so excellent business for him as shown above)
Output: 26,38 piece per hour
Profit per hour (depending on net selling price):
At 20,0: = 26,38 * (20 - 15,64) = 115c
At 21,0: = 26,38 * (21 - 15,64) = 141c
At 22,0: = 26,38 * (22 - 15,64) = 168c
This leads to ROI of 30,0, 24,5 and 20,6 days respectively. This means wood for 20.0 is really poor business and the profitability is completely poor if you place this 20.0 at market not in contract. The prices you see on the market sometimes (20.0 and below) are most probably due to the fact that lot of people simply subsidize (in most cases unwillingly, unconciously
) their wood production by their wells. But such unconcious dumping is a general problem in this game. So my advice is to make sure that every of your buildings is generating proper profit in terms of ROI. I personally don't produce/sell wood below 22.0 a piece.Just my few cents to increase my post count.
-
Guest
Your building prices (which are very important) are not calculated in your ROI, plus I rather think water is far more sensitive for the market as wood, because the difference of 1 cent means lots more or less profit on a whole bunch of water than a couple of cents fluctuating on your woodConclusion :
The wood industry is more profitable than the water industry. However, the wood industry is much sensitive than the water industry.
-
Guest
Orval,
the ROI formulas for the game (= break-even point):
To be significative, I have choice as unit a day (normally the unit is a %, but this is too variable according to the selling price, in terms of day it is much stable). However, I haven't included the raw material, which is a mistake for others, but as merchant ... (only 15 days) I can't determine the cost of the raw materials because mine were free
I shall be happy if you demonstrate it, my science isn't perfect. I do with that I know and try to improve my knowlegde.
the ROI formulas for the game (= break-even point):
the real formulas :Cost of your Investment / gross margin
(Gain form the investment - Cost of Investment) / Cost of Investment
To be significative, I have choice as unit a day (normally the unit is a %, but this is too variable according to the selling price, in terms of day it is much stable). However, I haven't included the raw material, which is a mistake for others, but as merchant ... (only 15 days) I can't determine the cost of the raw materials because mine were free
plus I rather think water is far more sensitive for the market as wood, because the difference of 1 cent means lots more or less profit on a whole bunch of water than a couple of cents fluctuating on your wood
I shall be happy if you demonstrate it, my science isn't perfect. I do with that I know and try to improve my knowlegde.
-
Guest
I'v made all the maths for trader:I shall be happy if you demonstrate it, my science isn't perfect. I do with that I know and try to improve my knowlegde.
Assuming we have a well in the yellow zone, it produces:
9.900,99 w/h
costs: 0,02c (prod.c.)+ 0,007c (power @ market price)=0,027c/w
we sell our water for let's say 0,06c
profit:0,06-0,027= 0.033c/w
your well has a profit of 0,033*9.900,99=326,73$
let's see what the impact is of water going down 1c: 326,73-0.01*9.900,99=227.73$
(look @ the underlined formula, the multiplier determines the impact of the profit)
We'r facing here a difference of 100$ per kapicent the water fluctuates
Now let's take a closer look @ the wood:
multiplier here is 27,85
As we know, the average price for wood is 21, but the market here doesn't fluctuate with an average of 1 cent here, the volatility is more like 100 times more, which means 100*1c = 1$
applying the same formula:
1,00*27,85= 27,85
->should be your additional profit for every kapi wood increases (or extra profit loss for every kapi wood decreases)
Conclusion: wood market is 3 times less volatile than water market
the ROI thingy is more complicated, certainly when you start expanding, with a long term view, we consider construction price being 0 and only apply expanding costs which are only different for the zones, even then they are different in the hiring of employees and the expanding cost in money, I estimate that would be difference of 3000$ for red and green per m
-
Guest
well IMHO when we center the price of water around 0.06 and wood around 21.00 we will get the following results:
1% change of price of wood results in 3,9% change in your operating profit
1% change of price of water results in 1,8% change in your operating profit
So theoretically wood is more risky due to higher operating leverage (and also due to the fact that the profit depends heavily on price of water and power). Additionally the stuff is unsellable profitably at the market as the 10% commision eats up ca. 1/3 of your profit. At least I produce wood only for arranged LT contracts.
Water theoretically is more safe, but here the problem is the huge gap between possible market prices. 0.07 vs. 0.06 is +17%. This results in high bid/ask spread and increases risk.
1% change of price of wood results in 3,9% change in your operating profit
1% change of price of water results in 1,8% change in your operating profit
So theoretically wood is more risky due to higher operating leverage (and also due to the fact that the profit depends heavily on price of water and power). Additionally the stuff is unsellable profitably at the market as the 10% commision eats up ca. 1/3 of your profit. At least I produce wood only for arranged LT contracts.
Water theoretically is more safe, but here the problem is the huge gap between possible market prices. 0.07 vs. 0.06 is +17%. This results in high bid/ask spread and increases risk.
-
Guest
If people want to use maths and percents, that's ok, but they should use them only when they know what they'r talking about. Do you know what 1% change price of water priced for 0.06 is? Well that is 0.0594. Water fluctuates (as I said in previous post with 0.01 cent. That means it can be 0.05 c on the market or 0.07 (average), but it never is 0.0594, the relative fluctuations are 16,6%,elder wrote:well IMHO when we center the price of water around 0.06 and wood around 21.00 we will get the following results:
1% change of price of wood results in 3,9% change in your operating profit
1% change of price of water results in 1,8% change in your operating profit
wood generaly goes up or down in the order of 1$ which is not even 5%
Now 16,6% is quite different from 5%, don't you think? Conclusion: water 3 times more volatile than wood, just as stated in my other post.
-
Guest
yes, as said water and wood are not the most profitable products on server. And the main problem with plantations after few weeks is that payback on their expansion is horribly long, even for the most profitable products like currently corn.
As for discussion on variations: the simplified first derivative of profit as function of price is the most obvious measurement of risk. But of course the point with price intervals of water (and power) is valid as I also mentioned in my previous post.
In any case as said there are easier ways to make money.
As for discussion on variations: the simplified first derivative of profit as function of price is the most obvious measurement of risk. But of course the point with price intervals of water (and power) is valid as I also mentioned in my previous post.
In any case as said there are easier ways to make money.
-
Guest
You lost me here. Firstly why use Trader? Merchant is much simpler as a baseline and more relateable to a new player. Secondly, even at trader a green plantation puts out 668 per day (requiring just under 19 days). At Merchant it's just over 800, making the payoff period 15 days like I said in the first place.Wood piece at Q0 :
1 Seed (1 liter of water + 0.01) : 0.08
50 kWh : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
50 liters of water : 0.07 * 50 = 3.50
Fix cost : 9 caps
total production cost: 16.08 caps
Selling price : 22 caps
Margin : 22 - 16.08 = 5.92 caps / wood bushels
ROI : 75,000 / 5.92 = 12,668.92 woods bushels => 32 days
However the look at sensitivity is a good one. Of course sensitivity works both ways, and higher prices via quality is something we have control over. Which is why even though I dislike the car business, I woudn't be surprised if at q10 it became the most profitable product in the game. (Assuming of course that a quality bump increases purchase price the same % in all products - a very large and possibly incorrect assumption).
And then you calculate in expansion costs where materials play a much larger role and the differences wash out a lot. I actually have two spreadsheets for my cost analysis - one based on actual costs of buildings (good for starting out) and one based on opportunity costs of a building slot (useful when approaching the limit). Fortunately my list of the 11 best products is a standard deviation away from the nearest competitors, so it stands out equally well on both sheets.Your building prices (which are very important) are not calculated in your ROI
There's truth to what you're saying but it's a different message.I rather think water is far more sensitive for the market as wood, because the difference of 1 cent means lots more or less profit on a whole bunch of water than a couple of cents fluctuating on your wood
What SPB is saying
Product A: Cost 1, Price 10 = Profit 9.
If Price drops 10% to 9, new profit is 8, difference of 1.
Profit drop from 10% price drop = 1/9 = 11.1%
Product B: Cost 101, Price 110 = Profit 9
If price drops 10% to 99, this product is now losing money!
So even though both earned the same price per day, B with it's greater costs is much more sensitive.
What Orval is saying
A product priced at 100 is less likely to move by 10%. An undercutting competitor can pick 99.99, then 99.98.
A product priced at 0.10 has to move by 10%. Aside from convoluted contract combinations, it's impossible to drop the price of water by 1%.
Which is a point I was going to make earlier until you guys made it for me. If you're going to consider profit sensitivity to market moves, I think you also have to consider market sensitivity to player behavior. And to a degree they cancel each other out a bit.
You are for the most part correct. We could quibble over the semantics of talking about Return on Building Investment and Return on Product Investment. However it all boils down to two sides of the same coin. Whether you calculate profit per day and then divide into building cost, or figure loads needed then divide by daily production, it all comes out to the same thing. Commutative law of multiplication.the real formulas :
(Gain form the investment - Cost of Investment) / Cost of Investment
When talking to people who know precision is good. But when explaining technical subject to non-techincal crowds (as I often do) I've found generalizing the details helps them understand the underlying rationale without getting scared off by memorizing terms.
-
Guest
Thx for the explanation Knolls, good analysis, (I used trader in my example because the guy I replied to was trader himself)
Now, you'v just mentioned a point I was thinking about for a while, the quality and what it could do with cars, I am considering to go into that business for the same reasoning you made but the low demand really frightens me, I'v also heard that car dealers are very sucky business, you may produce a lot of cars for cheap but someone's gotta buy them eventually from you. Could anyone verify that, who is active in car business?
I 'd like to know what the average profit per hour is for a car dealer
Now, you'v just mentioned a point I was thinking about for a while, the quality and what it could do with cars, I am considering to go into that business for the same reasoning you made but the low demand really frightens me, I'v also heard that car dealers are very sucky business, you may produce a lot of cars for cheap but someone's gotta buy them eventually from you. Could anyone verify that, who is active in car business?
I 'd like to know what the average profit per hour is for a car dealer
-
Guest