Is producing power worth it?
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Is producing power worth it?
I've previously played Kapi Regnum, so I know a bit about how the game works, but the markets are very different over there. The NPC sells water for 0.24, and it is not worth it to try to produce it on your own, either to sell or to use. Here, I see lots of people selling water and power more cheaply than the NPC, who sells for only 0.17. Probably this is partly due to the fact that wells in yellow countries here seem to be about 10 times faster than wells in KR. I wonder if it is something similar for power.
Anyway, I want to try and go up the electronics tree and the drugstore tree, which requires a lot of power, but not so much water. I've started out by building a factory, a well, and a gas station, producing gas for a short period, and producing and selling water while I wait for the gas station to finish. I've been buying power for around 0.12 from the market to drive this.
Buying the raw material seemed like the sensible thing at first, since that's what you do in KR, but now I am wondering if I should buy a power plant when I get the money and make my own power. Also, where should I put it if I do? As I understand it, the building and production costs will be cheapest in the green countries, but the production rate will be best in the red countries - right? Should I then wait for the money to put one in a red country? My other option would be to buy a mine, which I would need for minerals and quartz anyway, and start making steel until I can buy a chemical plant and a drugstore and eventually the electronics buildings. By the time I start with electronics, I will probably be using tons of power - so should I be shelling out the money for a power plant now?
Anyway, I want to try and go up the electronics tree and the drugstore tree, which requires a lot of power, but not so much water. I've started out by building a factory, a well, and a gas station, producing gas for a short period, and producing and selling water while I wait for the gas station to finish. I've been buying power for around 0.12 from the market to drive this.
Buying the raw material seemed like the sensible thing at first, since that's what you do in KR, but now I am wondering if I should buy a power plant when I get the money and make my own power. Also, where should I put it if I do? As I understand it, the building and production costs will be cheapest in the green countries, but the production rate will be best in the red countries - right? Should I then wait for the money to put one in a red country? My other option would be to buy a mine, which I would need for minerals and quartz anyway, and start making steel until I can buy a chemical plant and a drugstore and eventually the electronics buildings. By the time I start with electronics, I will probably be using tons of power - so should I be shelling out the money for a power plant now?
Oh boy, lots of questions, and a lot of answers to give.
First of all, don't make your own steel, it is not profitable, just buy it.
Concentrate on producing all the other raw materials like wood stones water and yes, power.
Powerstations in the red zone are good when the marketprice is high, they are better in the green zone when marketprice is low, so the answer is not that easy.
Some prefer red, others green, I myself have a mixture of bot red and green zone.
Maybe buying power is also a good option, that way you can use that building space for another more profitable building.
Mines are very good for beginners, everybody needs stones, so they can make a good profit and you only need a little power and water.
Wells are ok too, water is always in demand and you can make oil and eventually gas.
(Higher quality oil and gas is better for profit though, so start researching).
Electronics and drugstores..hmm, electronics can be great, especially making televisions, but you need a high quality televisions before it makes a decent profit.
Drugstores are not so great, you can make some profit, again with higher quality products, but it could be better.
As a beginner I suggest you start with mines wells plantations (wood Q0 sells good) and also build research centres to start researching the products you eventually want to produce.
So when the time comes and you are ready you can start producing for example televisions of a good quality.
You may want shops when you have grown bigger, don't start to soon, but when you build a shop (or more then one)now you can already start with expanding it so you will have a good sized shop when you are a bit further in the game.
For example electronics stores.
Just produce raw materials for now, fill up 50 buildingslots with buildings that produce raw materials 4 stores to start expansion and 6 research centres, (tis is only an example) and start producing and selling as much as you can.
Only AFTER filling your buildingslots, start to expand a couple of your buildings at the time.
Well I could say so much more, but I suggest you read older threads in this help section and the rest of the forum sections as well, practically all the answers are there for you to find on this forum, use the search button, check the market, use your common sense and you will get there.
Have fun.
About red and green zones for production: with this link you can calculate all that stuff by yourself.
http://www.kapitools.de/ausbau-rechner-en.php
You will notice that even though red zones are more expensive, you will make more profit in the end when you build certain buildings there, like factories.
The bigger your buildings get the more difference you will notice in the production output in green or red factories.
And it is a BIG difference once you have large buildings.


First of all, don't make your own steel, it is not profitable, just buy it.
Concentrate on producing all the other raw materials like wood stones water and yes, power.
Powerstations in the red zone are good when the marketprice is high, they are better in the green zone when marketprice is low, so the answer is not that easy.
Some prefer red, others green, I myself have a mixture of bot red and green zone.
Maybe buying power is also a good option, that way you can use that building space for another more profitable building.
Mines are very good for beginners, everybody needs stones, so they can make a good profit and you only need a little power and water.
Wells are ok too, water is always in demand and you can make oil and eventually gas.
(Higher quality oil and gas is better for profit though, so start researching).
Electronics and drugstores..hmm, electronics can be great, especially making televisions, but you need a high quality televisions before it makes a decent profit.
Drugstores are not so great, you can make some profit, again with higher quality products, but it could be better.
As a beginner I suggest you start with mines wells plantations (wood Q0 sells good) and also build research centres to start researching the products you eventually want to produce.
So when the time comes and you are ready you can start producing for example televisions of a good quality.
You may want shops when you have grown bigger, don't start to soon, but when you build a shop (or more then one)now you can already start with expanding it so you will have a good sized shop when you are a bit further in the game.
For example electronics stores.
Just produce raw materials for now, fill up 50 buildingslots with buildings that produce raw materials 4 stores to start expansion and 6 research centres, (tis is only an example) and start producing and selling as much as you can.
Only AFTER filling your buildingslots, start to expand a couple of your buildings at the time.
Well I could say so much more, but I suggest you read older threads in this help section and the rest of the forum sections as well, practically all the answers are there for you to find on this forum, use the search button, check the market, use your common sense and you will get there.
Have fun.
About red and green zones for production: with this link you can calculate all that stuff by yourself.
http://www.kapitools.de/ausbau-rechner-en.php
You will notice that even though red zones are more expensive, you will make more profit in the end when you build certain buildings there, like factories.
The bigger your buildings get the more difference you will notice in the production output in green or red factories.
And it is a BIG difference once you have large buildings.

Last edited by Guest on 03.08.2009, 23:52, edited 9 times in total.
I understand that the absolute best way to make money is to mechanically make raw materials and sell them to other players. (Why not steel, though? It's a building material, so everyone needs it.) However, I don't just want to make huge amounts of money; I want to make higher level goods with complicated production chains and sell them to the NPCs, in the spirit of roleplay (ish). Obviously I will need money to do this, but making money for the sake of making money (rather than for the sake of having money to use to expand production) is not as interesting to me.
All-righty them 
Steel is unprofitable because of stones. In order to make the raw materials (5 coal, 2 iron) you have to sell them for at least 20ea or you lose money in respect to stones. Ergo 7x20=140, steel sells for 135...
If you can get Q0 iron+coal for 5ea then steel becomes profitable again but good luck
Agreed, its nop fun 'just' making money and such is the reason I refuse to produce power, its just too dang boring! Hence why I make TVs. On the topic of PPs (power plants), red is best all the way but really you need to work it out for yourself. On the short term green will pay for itself faster but once you reach 100m its quite expensive to re-align all you plants to red as that extra 25% bang for your buck outweighs the slighly higher build costs by a high margin.
First up, you can make money with low Q but you have to buy high Q raw products from outside. I personaly buy silicon, quartz, chems, oil at high Q and produce the rest myself using these. This way I ensure that I have a great Q with a comparitivly low research. It can be more costly by a long shot but more than worth it.
With RCs in the TV bis you need quite a few to make it work. I try for 2 per research and failing that 2 per 2 for fast expantion. Build 4 tech RCs to ensure you can increase your Q at optimal speed.
Drugs are a little useless when it comes to profit and it may be best that you wait till you have the cash to drop into the market and still take the loss whilst restructing. Power usualy sits at around 0.10 usualy so only buy at that or unless your desperate. Really I can only talk in relation to R2 so feel free to give me a call, Im always happy to help any way I can.
Oh yer, Sally is right as usualy when advisng a good solid standing in raw materals b4 branching out too quickly and getting boged down in spending too keep yourself afloat with overheads.
H

Steel is unprofitable because of stones. In order to make the raw materials (5 coal, 2 iron) you have to sell them for at least 20ea or you lose money in respect to stones. Ergo 7x20=140, steel sells for 135...
If you can get Q0 iron+coal for 5ea then steel becomes profitable again but good luck

Agreed, its nop fun 'just' making money and such is the reason I refuse to produce power, its just too dang boring! Hence why I make TVs. On the topic of PPs (power plants), red is best all the way but really you need to work it out for yourself. On the short term green will pay for itself faster but once you reach 100m its quite expensive to re-align all you plants to red as that extra 25% bang for your buck outweighs the slighly higher build costs by a high margin.
First up, you can make money with low Q but you have to buy high Q raw products from outside. I personaly buy silicon, quartz, chems, oil at high Q and produce the rest myself using these. This way I ensure that I have a great Q with a comparitivly low research. It can be more costly by a long shot but more than worth it.
With RCs in the TV bis you need quite a few to make it work. I try for 2 per research and failing that 2 per 2 for fast expantion. Build 4 tech RCs to ensure you can increase your Q at optimal speed.
Drugs are a little useless when it comes to profit and it may be best that you wait till you have the cash to drop into the market and still take the loss whilst restructing. Power usualy sits at around 0.10 usualy so only buy at that or unless your desperate. Really I can only talk in relation to R2 so feel free to give me a call, Im always happy to help any way I can.
Oh yer, Sally is right as usualy when advisng a good solid standing in raw materals b4 branching out too quickly and getting boged down in spending too keep yourself afloat with overheads.
H

Steel can still profitable as long as you produce your own required material to make stee, it wont be as good as making stone but still you still have some profitl
But thats something you can do later on when your company is bigger 
But still sally is correct start with mines and produce stone, it always work


But still sally is correct start with mines and produce stone, it always work

What does it have to do with stones, though? Iron ore and coal are 10 power + 7 water, and even if you have to buy them from the NPC, that only comes to $2.89 for each. Steel is then 7 coal + iron ($20.23) + 200 power ($34) + 0.5 chemicals. I'd have to set up the spreadsheet to find out what the chemicals wind up costing, and there's the actual production costs for all of these too, but I doubt it works out to $90 for the rest. Unless you just mean that stones are more profitable?Horizon Holdings wrote:Steel is unprofitable because of stones. In order to make the raw materials (5 coal, 2 iron) you have to sell them for at least 20ea or you lose money in respect to stones. Ergo 7x20=140, steel sells for 135...
If you can get Q0 iron+coal for 5ea then steel becomes profitable again but good luck
I'll have to keep the TVs in mind.Agreed, its nop fun 'just' making money and such is the reason I refuse to produce power, its just too dang boring! Hence why I make TVs.

By "re-align" do you mean "tear down and rebuild somewhere else" or is there an easier way to do it?On the topic of PPs (power plants), red is best all the way but really you need to work it out for yourself. On the short term green will pay for itself faster but once you reach 100m its quite expensive to re-align all you plants to red as that extra 25% bang for your buck outweighs the slighly higher build costs by a high margin.
Is it worth buying the RC buildings for the raw materials too and work from the bottom up as well, or does it wind up being cheaper to just buy high-Q raw materials from the market?With RCs in the TV bis you need quite a few to make it work. I try for 2 per research and failing that 2 per 2 for fast expantion. Build 4 tech RCs to ensure you can increase your Q at optimal speed.
Ahh. I mainly wanted to do the drugstore stuff because it uses some of the same raw materials I'd need for the electronics (plastic, mainly) and raw materials which come from the same buildings, so I could spend research points where I'd be able to make use of them for other higher-level products as well. What's a good product chain to work with simultaneously (or prior to) the electronics?Drugs are a little useless when it comes to profit and it may be best that you wait till you have the cash to drop into the market and still take the loss whilst restructing.
1. Take a look at: www.KapiTools.de
2. NEVER think that because you make a product for 3 caps it is worth 3 caps. The product should always be calculated with the current market price instead. Pay your products/buildings: http://www.forum.kapilands.com/viewtopi ... ght=#20509
3. As sally said, don't make steel. Even at high levels steel isn't very profitable when you add in the research costs.
4. Don't make power. It will save you time and money down the road just to buy it from the market. (NPC price is 0.27 for unlimited supply and there is always people selling for less.) The building slot is worth more with other buildings than power plants.
5. Don't bother making a bunch of products. Pick 1 main product and 1 or 2, max, products required to produce the main item. This will maximize your profits faster than making everything required.
6. Drugstores really only have toothpaste as a decent money maker. If you want to make electronics go for TVs. There are always people buying them if you just want to focus on production rather than retail.
2. NEVER think that because you make a product for 3 caps it is worth 3 caps. The product should always be calculated with the current market price instead. Pay your products/buildings: http://www.forum.kapilands.com/viewtopi ... ght=#20509
3. As sally said, don't make steel. Even at high levels steel isn't very profitable when you add in the research costs.
4. Don't make power. It will save you time and money down the road just to buy it from the market. (NPC price is 0.27 for unlimited supply and there is always people selling for less.) The building slot is worth more with other buildings than power plants.
5. Don't bother making a bunch of products. Pick 1 main product and 1 or 2, max, products required to produce the main item. This will maximize your profits faster than making everything required.
6. Drugstores really only have toothpaste as a decent money maker. If you want to make electronics go for TVs. There are always people buying them if you just want to focus on production rather than retail.
That mostly just seems to be saying that you shouldn't make something that doesn't make a profit, which is common sense. Randomly deciding that your goods are "worth" more than the actual money you put into making them does not help when you want to do things like calculate the break-even price and the actual profit (or loss) you're making. You can probably factor in the time in order to calculate things like profit per minute (assuming you watch all your production like a hawk and start the next batch of whatever at the exact same moment the previous batch finishes), but I see now compelling reason to purposefully fudge the records of how much money I put into production. Also, that person forgot to factor in the cost of the power that they bought to make the water. That's just shoddy accounting, all around.Azer Productions wrote:2. NEVER think that because you make a product for 3 caps it is worth 3 caps. The product should always be calculated with the current market price instead. Pay your products/buildings: http://www.forum.kapilands.com/viewtopi ... ght=#20509
Calculating the cattle scenario given:
water - 0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01 + 0.02 = 0.03 (0.15 in the market)
seeds - 0.03 + 0.01 = 0.04 (0.15 in the market)
corn - 0.04 + 2 * 0.03 = 0.10 + 0.09 = 0.19 (3.90 in the market)
cattle - 30 * 0.19 = 5.70 + 350 * 0.03 = 16.20 + 2.25 = 18.45 (120.00 in the market)
(Market prices are the lowest prices in R2 as of a few minutes ago. Obviously, if any of them had been less than the from-scratch price, we would simply buy the good from the market instead of making it.)
So, 18.45 (per cattle) is the exact amount of cap you put into manufacturing the cattle, not including infrastructure. Is 100 cap of profit per cattle good enough? Will it pay for the buildings you built in a timely manner? Is it a good enough profit for the time spent in production? I don't know, but now that we have exact numbers for this, I could do the calculations and actually find out, rather than making vague estimates and deciding based on those whether or not you're making a profit but being unable to say exactly how much of one.
It certainly seems like making your own steel from scratch is more profitable than buying it, though. Do you have actual numbers that aren't fudged?3. As sally said, don't make steel. Even at high levels steel isn't very profitable when you add in the research costs.
But, like I said, the point is not to maximize profits, but to build an autonomous manufacturing empire (or at least, it is for me). I'd rather sink the time and money into making it so that I can product a particular product from the ground up in high Q without having to depend on the outside market except for things the NPC can provide. Obviously that'll take a while, so I need something else to make money in the meantime.5. Don't bother making a bunch of products. Pick 1 main product and 1 or 2, max, products required to produce the main item. This will maximize your profits faster than making everything required.
No offence but you need to study some economics.
Pay your products. If you could sell the sub products for more than the main product, why waste money by producing the main product? (Knolls wrote that article years ago so prices have changed since then.)
Example:
Steel
Production: 15.00
2 Iron Ore x 8 = 16
5 Coal x 10 = 50
0.5 Chemicals x 15 = 7.5
200 Power x 0.27 = 54
Total Cost = 142.5
The NPC cost for unlimited steel is 135. As you can see you LOSE money to produce steel.
Now add to that all the building slots used while making steel. You need a mine or two to produce iron ore, coal and minerals(for chemicals) then add in a couple factories to produce chemicals and steel. Finally, add in the power plant and you have wasted about 5 building slots to LOSE money.
Just because you produce everything yourself doesn't mean you make more money. The economy is all about living off each other. You help me, I help you and we grow faster. A company that makes everything itself never really gets anywhere because of its slow growth.

Pay your products. If you could sell the sub products for more than the main product, why waste money by producing the main product? (Knolls wrote that article years ago so prices have changed since then.)
Example:
Steel
Production: 15.00
2 Iron Ore x 8 = 16
5 Coal x 10 = 50
0.5 Chemicals x 15 = 7.5
200 Power x 0.27 = 54
Total Cost = 142.5
The NPC cost for unlimited steel is 135. As you can see you LOSE money to produce steel.
Now add to that all the building slots used while making steel. You need a mine or two to produce iron ore, coal and minerals(for chemicals) then add in a couple factories to produce chemicals and steel. Finally, add in the power plant and you have wasted about 5 building slots to LOSE money.
Just because you produce everything yourself doesn't mean you make more money. The economy is all about living off each other. You help me, I help you and we grow faster. A company that makes everything itself never really gets anywhere because of its slow growth.
Well, sure, I'm really just applying common sense here.Azer Productions wrote:No offence but you need to study some economics.![]()
That's common sense too - if your goal is to make as much money as possible.Pay your products. If you could sell the sub products for more than the main product, why waste money by producing the main product?
I take it those are the market prices of those goods, so you are essentially saying that since the combined market prices of all of the components is greater than the market price of the finished product, it isn't worth it. This might be true if all you cared about was profit, but I'd rather sacrifice some profit in order to gain *fun*, or to accomplish a goal. If I stressed out about "losing" money every time I bought toilet paper that was $0.02 more expensive than some other brand of toilet paper, or ditched something that I could (in theory) sell on Craigslist for $5, I'd never get anything done. It's not losing money unless you give money up and don't get anything in return. Just because you chose a slightly less profitable product chain does not mean you "lost" anything. By that argument, there is really only one truly profitable way to play this game, and everyone who doesn't play that way is "losing" money.Example:
Steel
Production: 15.00
2 Iron Ore x 8 = 16
5 Coal x 10 = 50
0.5 Chemicals x 15 = 7.5
200 Power x 0.27 = 54
Total Cost = 142.5
The NPC cost for unlimited steel is 135. As you can see you LOSE money to produce steel.
You're right; it just means that you spend less.Just because you produce everything yourself doesn't mean you make more money.
Well sure, but that's the end goal. I just can't start out by buying an electronics factory and all the components for making TVs right off the bat.The economy is all about living off each other. You help me, I help you and we grow faster. A company that makes everything itself never really gets anywhere because of its slow growth.