Question to all (R2) about steel

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Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 02:02

unfortunately when entering this game you have to take economic theory with a pinch of salt, its ok to go with your basic theories of perfect market but to give a real work example, China factories (not just workers) make a pittance compared to the retail chains that mass market their products and these kind of differences are vastly exaggerated in this game

In real economic theory we would have reached market saturation years ago in most mainstream products, a person can only buy so many wardrobes =) And my 3k mine should be well and truly empty 8)

We could make the game far more challenging by removing the regulation that controls such a vast amount of the game such as the building cap or size cap. The NPC should in essence go out the window or at least have a sizable impact onto prices and demand should plummet to make other industries viable, employees should get paid daily...ect ect

Nothing is going to happen, upjers simply dosent want to commit significant time or money to this game. Sorry, on a downer today but its sadly true. Ive been playing for around 3 years on and off and the biggest change ive seen is the 100m->1b npc change....and the announcement that we will get R3...some day

Oh and you need to look up knolls post on 'paying your builds' i think theirs a faQ somewhere it should give you an insight im to tired to explain atm =)

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 02:09

bogeyboy corp wrote:Heh, you realise, that if enough players listen to you, Kapilands would become powerlands, with nothing but power and wardrobes ever being sold.

I'm guessing you're not a player who is focussed on meeting demand. ;)
Actually, power is a horrible product, it's also worth noting that 70% of every player that is big produces and or sells wardrobes. So yeah, no coincidence there.

I have written a large peice of why wardrobes are the most profitable, the reason being that everything used to make them is NPC. NPC = Market is unstable, and demand would make the price go really high. If they would remove NPC, Steel would technically rise in price until it would become profitable for you to make it. However, NPC puts a wrench in the whole system.

The other wrench is expectation. In terms of economic theroy, every part of the chain should make equal money. The problem is that people become used to some things being a certain price. For instance, if they would remove NPC, most players would still think of steel at a price of 135, yet the price would easily hit 600 before it would settle down again (due to people starting to actually make it).

You're right about the quality thing Cajny, the quality required to make steel worthwhile is impossible in current game terms, being like q120 or something retarded.

Opprotunity cost is a very important consideration. What you should do in order to make money is remove every building that is not the MOST profitable, then just make/sell things that are the most profitable. This isn't always possible, ie. to make TVs you almost need to make plastic, but if you could find a plastic supplier, TVs would be very much more profitable. A max size TV producing company that buys it's plastic makes 3-3.5 billion per day, and only makes 1.5 billion or so if it makes it. Plastic is another money sink, just like steel.

If for some reason making steel is "fun" for you, then i can't say anything to you. If building cars from scratch is fun, then it's fun, and you have every right to do whatever you want. If you are looking to make the most profit, don't be dumb, consider opprotunity cost.

BTW - the most profitable products in the game aren't what one would think. According to some calculations i did a year or so ago, at high quality research, car bodies are the most profitable, with a total of about 20 billion profit per day with a company that only sells them, and engines are second, with like 10 billion profit per day. Of course, you need to buy LOADS of steel to make this work :P, and there would have to be a lot more cars sold daily, but whatever. Wardrobes is considered the most profit because it is possible in any situation. The demand will never be met, the supply of raw materials is unlimited. Wardrobes is by far the most stable business in the game.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 02:11

Horizon Holdings wrote:unfortunately when entering this game you have to take economic theory with a pinch of salt, its ok to go with your basic theories of perfect market but to give a real work example, China factories (not just workers) make a pittance compared to the retail chains that mass market their products and these kind of differences are vastly exaggerated in this game

In real economic theory we would have reached market saturation years ago in most mainstream products, a person can only buy so many wardrobes =) And my 3k mine should be well and truly empty 8)

We could make the game far more challenging by removing the regulation that controls such a vast amount of the game such as the building cap or size cap. The NPC should in essence go out the window or at least have a sizable impact onto prices and demand should plummet to make other industries viable, employees should get paid daily...ect ect

Nothing is going to happen, upjers simply dosent want to commit significant time or money to this game. Sorry, on a downer today but its sadly true. Ive been playing for around 3 years on and off and the biggest change ive seen is the 100m->1b npc change....and the announcement that we will get R3...some day

Oh and you need to look up knolls post on 'paying your builds' i think theirs a faQ somewhere it should give you an insight im to tired to explain atm =)
About the size thing, i asked that question awhile ago.

Apparently in the programming language they use, 32767 is a significant number, which is the last possible number. Therefore, they cannot go above this.

It's the same with 127 for research. You can research higher, but you can't actually go higher (unless this has been changed?).

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 08:11

Well, the topic was meant to be to point out wether there is a majo issue with steel or not. Since very few seem to supply it, I thought someone would say something to make steel the greatest (or worst) product there is...
But nope... Standard product... Just turned the thread into the standard spam too. the common chants of 'do everything by contract and just sell power and wardrobes because thats the only way to quickly have what everyone else already has'...

We've learned that steel isn't THE most profitable item... but it's nothing major holdback-styled either. Thanks guys.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 08:53

Well,

basic information: you obviously have factories, do you also have the according mine capacity? Keep checking the market prices for mining products. Also keep checking the prices for factory products. Why producing steel Q0 (which is a +/-0 story) if you can sell chemicals Q0 at a decent price on the market/via contract? I do not go shopping a lot so I have no idea about current market prices...

Dopamin

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 09:07

Hmm, looking for a make or break reason on steel, try this beuat
Iron, coal and stones have the same output rates and about the same costs.
Its 7 (5 + 2) to produce steel thats 27*7=189ea, tada thats 54 bucks over the NPC price....
Sorry to be a bit of uh jerk after I read that it came across that way =)

To hijack it one last time ill answer the above Q
32767 is the max value in C++ programing (or binary for that matter), it makes little sense to me since I brought 3b power yesterday, way over 32767...It might just be that its easier to do it this way but in no way is it impossible to increase it. The research number makes even less sense to me but they have finally changed it so its a moot point, it will take us quite a while to reach that lol

Steel dont work unless you have a stupidly high RC to make it work

My 2c
H

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 10:43

bogeyboy corp wrote:Well, the topic was meant to be to point out wether there is a majo issue with steel or not. Since very few seem to supply it, I thought someone would say something to make steel the greatest (or worst) product there is...
But nope... Standard product... Just turned the thread into the standard spam too. the common chants of 'do everything by contract and just sell power and wardrobes because thats the only way to quickly have what everyone else already has'...

We've learned that steel isn't THE most profitable item... but it's nothing major holdback-styled either. Thanks guys.
I actually thinking to moving into producing ultra-high quality steel :D

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 10:51

ILIYYILI wrote:
bogeyboy corp wrote:Well, the topic was meant to be to point out wether there is a majo issue with steel or not. Since very few seem to supply it, I thought someone would say something to make steel the greatest (or worst) product there is...
But nope... Standard product... Just turned the thread into the standard spam too. the common chants of 'do everything by contract and just sell power and wardrobes because thats the only way to quickly have what everyone else already has'...

We've learned that steel isn't THE most profitable item... but it's nothing major holdback-styled either. Thanks guys.
I actually thinking to moving into producing ultra-high quality steel :D
Good luck, it becomes profitable at q120 or something.

And to OP, i don't mean to tell you you cannot produce steel. Your company will grow very slowly, and you will eventually be able to expand. I am however saying that if you want to make the MOST profit from your company, wardrobes (not power) is the way to go, but there are some other profitable dealings, steel just isn't amoung them.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 10:53

It becomes profitable in a Q much lower than 120.
many wardrobe and tire producers will pay alot for high quality steel.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 10:58

I had a play around with making high Q steel last year got upto around Q36 can't remember the exact figures there was some profit but not worth it for me or whoever bought it to use would of added a high cost increase to any production line, the amounts produced also wasted the use of my factories in my opinion.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 11:03

Might be worth it when your producing for yourself since the market obviously wont price it correctly (removes the pay your builds argument) the added bonus of ultra-high Q steel on wardrobes ect might be worth it in retail

My 2c
H

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 11:19

It ended up not worth it producing for myself due to limited amounts produced, i would of had get rid of joineries and build more factories to increase production which is totally pointless,

Producing high Q steel yourself might be worth it for some industries but not wardrobes in my opinion, might be more worth it if your producing cars/cabrios where you are trying to keep the Q up and juggling 9/10 different tech elements to the Q on the final product, but then with cars you need a lot of steel so the worthiness of the high Q steel might just be in peoples heads there.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 16:07

Even cars production can live without high quality steel.

In stores you get cca 5000*Q for car (very rough estimate, I can't test it due to expansions of stores at the moment).

10 research inputs means 500c per quality for each input.

In case of the final product - car - you need 500 steel so it makes 1c per Q
For cabriolets it is a bit better - 1,25c per Q

For car bodies it is 500/3/300= 0,55 per Q
For engines it is 500/5/100= 1 per Q
For tires it is 500/4/4/3= 10,41 per Q

So it might be worthwhile producing high quality steel for tires production. You don't need large quantities. But for small quantities it is not worthwhile doing a research.

So my opinion is "no". Producing steel is not a reasonable idea from economic point of view...

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.08.2010, 16:53

stajny wrote:
So it might be worthwhile producing high quality steel for tires production. You don't need large quantities. But for small quantities it is not worthwhile doing a research.

So my opinion is "no". Producing steel is not a reasonable idea from economic point of view...


You don't think of it right :)
If one player produces really high quality, many tire and wardrobes (and maybe something else that don't need much steel) producers will buy from high for a high price!

Quality 40 steel will boost your wardrobe quality by 10!
Quality 80 steel by 20!

That can be very profitable for both the steel and the wardrobe producers!

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