Power Prices are too low

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Guest

Post by Guest » 25.02.2007, 14:04

kiddbeck wrote:Alright, I saw your words in that post...

Just like what I said, if you can get the meaning by the word "value" , that is alright.

But the case seems different. You told that if you sell the steel for 50 you still earned the money, it just showed your misunderstanding of the "cost".

Please think about it, before you produce the steel, you have 70 caps because you can sell the input materials on the market, but after your production and sale, you only have 50, Do you still think you have earned money?

Furthermore, you still could not think you are earning money (in more general ecnomic way), even if you sell the steel at 71, because you should also consider the general profit/time by one production activity in the kapiland. Considering what H-B said, not everyone like to be the No.1 in the game, me neither, let 's just use the newbie income stream, I mean just better than they product fruit or Q0 seeds.

I should say sorry if I use some annoying words which could make you unhappy, because I feel a little bit vexed about the topic just before, but now I just wanna give some of my opinion for everyone, I hope the readers including you can pick up somehing useful.

Thanks everyone for reading. and enjoy the improving of the company. :wink:
Yes. He still earned money, if he made steel for below 50 kapidollars.

Yeah. He lost money on opportunity cost, but whatever.

Let me ask you something.

How much do you work? 8 hours a day? Well. Did you know you're losing money by not taking advantage of overtime pay?

You might want to record that in your expenses somewhere.

Guest

Post by Guest » 25.02.2007, 16:20

How much do you work? 8 hours a day? Well. Did you know you're losing money by not taking advantage of overtime pay?

Aha, nice question.

Everytime you consider the opponunity cost in the real life, you should put much more in, just like what you mentioned enjoy your spare time, because, which is important here, if you are working, you can't sleep or drink beer.

However, in the game, the case is different, you don't have to do anything during your production but just click a number and press enter, then you can enjoy your life for a whole day if you want.

Alright, after my anwser, I also wanna point out that your question is not so relevant here. since you wanna say you won't lose anything if you don't do anthing, but the situation here is you lose the money after a production and sale activity, following your example, you have to pay money to your boss after your overtime work.

Guest

Post by Guest » 25.02.2007, 21:00

u could look at it as u have paid ur workers to work overtime ... or that u just have that amount of workers on during a shift, in 8 hour shifts, 3 times a day ... so that ur production doesnt change, and ur workers never change, and technically its no overtime. (sorry, i have actually worked at a factory ... and yes, there is overtime sometimes, but its usually during holiday times lol)

Guest

Post by Guest » 25.02.2007, 23:43

I do think I understand what you re trying to say. I believe there is only a difference in our terminology, but you seem to think there is more to it than that.

I would like to make one last attempt at clarification since I think you misunderstand me. After this, I will let the topic go, even if you would like to add a few comments. I think we will have said plenty for others to make up their own minds. (Note: this response ended up much longer than expected :shock: .)

I took a few minutes on wikipedia to look up the economics definitions of cost and profit. They clear up some of our terms. The cost I refer to is called historical or accounting cost. The cost you refer to is called opportunity cost. Both are valid ways of looking at cost, they just give different information. But, for the way I was using cost in my original post (comparing two different ways to make money), I think that accounting cost is the appropriate method.

Accounting cost is simply how much you paid to make the item subtracted from how much you sold the item for.
Opportunity cost is "the value of the best alternative that was not chosen in order to pursue the current endeavor."

From these definitions, it seems to me that if you want to compare two different ways to make money, you must use accounting cost. This is because the opportunity cost is already a comparison against another possibility and cannot be further compared to a third possibility. In our example of steel, if we say that accounting cost is 20, opportunity cost is 70, and selling price is 130, then I would calculate a profit of 110, but you might calculate a profit of 60. If you are trying to compare the profitability of steel versus another product, you cannot fairly compare with a profit of 60. What if another product had an accounting cost of 10, an opportunity cost of 100 and a selling price of 130. Then I would calculate the profit as 120 and you might calculate a profit of 30. Which of these two products is more profitable? I think, using accounting costs to determine the profit, it is clear that (assuming the same production rates and building costs) the second product is more profitable while using opportunity costs makes it look less profitable.

Simply put, while I see the value in evaluating opportunity costs, I do not believe they can be appropriately used to compare two different products because opportunity cost is already a comparison of the profit between two different actions. I hope you see the difference in uses now.

In fact, I prefer not to use opportunity costs to calculate any kind of profit because I believe it can be misleading. Take my example of selling steel at 50, which is between the accounting costs and opportunity cost. While I do not believe it is the best choice to sell for less than the opportunity cost, I still define it as profitable. By this I mean that, if you can make steel for 20 and sell it for 50, then the value of your company will increase with time. How can you not call this profit? The fact that you could have sold the raw materials (or for that matter the steel itself) for more has nothing to do with the fact that you are still increasing your money (my definition of profit). Opportunity cost is just a way of saying you could have made more profit by another method. But as I point out above, and alluded to in an earlier post, it is dependant on what the other method is. You choose by default, the selling price of the raw materials on the market. But what if I could take the same raw materials and make another product with them that would result in an even higher net gain than if I had made and sold steel? My point is that, if you start making these kinds of comparisons, there is a nearly infinite number of possibilities that you can compare to. Selling raw materials on the market is merely the most obvious one.

So if a person asks me how much it costs to make steel assuming they have a factory in red, a mine in yellow, and a power plant in green, then my answer will be about 20 caps. I believe this is the correct answer to the question because the player will likely want to know how much money they can make from this endeavor. The answer to that they will calculate themselves as the current market price (130) minus the cost (20) to give a profit of 110 caps per steel. The fact that they could have sold the raw materials for the steel for 70 has no effect on their net profit of 110 caps per steel. The opportunity cost is only important when a person is trying to decide if it is worth it to make steel from their raw materials. Then they may want to look at a profit based on opportunity cost to determine how much more money they will be making by taking the time to make the steel from their raw materials.

I think the simplest way to is to compare accounting cost based profits for various products. If you want to compare selling steel to selling its raw materials then I would prefer to do it this way. Currently, the accounting costs for me to produce all the raw materials for 1 steel is 5.2. The accounting cost for me to make a unit of steel is thus 20.2. Considering current market values, I calculate the following: Steel profit = market price - accounting cost = 130 - 20.2 = 109.8. Raw materials profit = 94 - 5.2 = 88.8. Now that I have calculated the profit (based on accounting costs) for each endeavor, I can make a comparison between them (or any other endeavor for which I have calculated its profit based on accounting cost) to say that I make 109.8 - 88.8 = 21 more caps from producing steel than selling the raw materials. It would be helpful when considering that your factory could be making more of something else instead of steel since you already have the raw materials, but I believe this is a further, more advanced analysis that depends on what the other thing is you would do. I think this advanced analysis is what you are referring to when you say you don't even make profit selling at 71. I understand your point, I just think we are looking at different levels of the analysis. Neither is wrong, they are just different. I prefer to start with a simple calculation of profit that is not dependent on other endeavors before making comparisons between endeavors.

I hope this overly detailed explanation with examples is enough to clear up any confusion. I hope it has been helpful to anyone willing to read it all. For my part, I have enjoyed this discussion and hope I have also not caused any ill feelings. :)

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 01:05

Although I put a lot of thought and research into the previous post (as you can imagine) I did have one new insight since writing it that may help combine our ideas. :idea:

I see now that a major difference in our comparisons of profit is that I calculate the profit of making steel starting with my buildings and no raw materials while you calculate profit based on the single step of making the steel and already having the raw materials however you got them.

From this standpoint, I understand your definition of cost and profit. Of course to compare two different product lines using this method would require a little more work. For instance, you would need to calculate the profit of each step going back to a common starting point for each product. The net result would be the same as my method. The only difference is that your method would require more work, but allow you to see the fractional profit gained at each step of the process.

So in the end, I think the important thing is, whichever form of cost is used, it is important to know what its definition is and use it properly in evaluations. As for the answer to the question, "How much does it cost to produce steel" I think the answer would depend on what form of cost the person is thinking. I think it is important that, whichever form of cost is cited, that it be clear what kind of cost is being cited since we cannot read the mind of the person asking the question to see which form they are expecting.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 03:35

kiddbeck wrote:How much do you work? 8 hours a day? Well. Did you know you're losing money by not taking advantage of overtime pay?

Aha, nice question.

Everytime you consider the opponunity cost in the real life, you should put much more in, just like what you mentioned enjoy your spare time, because, which is important here, if you are working, you can't sleep or drink beer.

However, in the game, the case is different, you don't have to do anything during your production but just click a number and press enter, then you can enjoy your life for a whole day if you want.

Alright, after my anwser, I also wanna point out that your question is not so relevant here. since you wanna say you won't lose anything if you don't do anthing, but the situation here is you lose the money after a production and sale activity, following your example, you have to pay money to your boss after your overtime work.
Beer is an expense.

You lose money through expenses.

You don't lose money through selling lower than you otherwise could, or turning the product into something different.

My point about overtime is that you can't be concerned too much about opportunity cost. The one thing you're neglecting to think about is that there is only so much demand for coal and iron, and that he is in the steel industry, not the mining industry.

And following my example you're losing more money not working overtime rather than working overtime. You pay only a fraction in taxes what your employer pays you.

Your also not paying your employer anything to pay you.

He doesn't get to keep any of that money (In fact, he has to meet what you pay for taxes). So you're wrong there too.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 04:16

Yeah, as you expected, I have to reply some words, since our discuss here is not just for us two, as I said before.

If the case is just like what you said in the previous 2 threads, I also think it is a terminology. However, I have to insist again, the case is not.

I don't mind what will you call the conception here, no matter following your way, the economic way or the accounting way, as long as you can make right decision with "the conception", it is alright.

However, just as what I point out before, you were still making the same mistake.
--------------------------
Let us focus some of your statement:

1, By this I mean that, if you can make steel for 20 and sell it for 50, then the value of your company will increase with time.
@ I re-found your similar words which showed your misunderstanding, let me give a example( the duration is assumed, since I don't it exactly, but it doesn't matter): at 8:00am you start to produce raw materials, at 10:00am you finished it and start to make steel and sell it for 50, and finished it at 11:00am, your asset stream is: at 8:00-zero, at 10:00-70, at 11:00-50, do you still think the value of your company increase "with time" ?

2, So if a person asks me how much it costs to make steel assuming they have a factory in red, a mine in yellow, and a power plant in green, then my answer will be about 20 caps.
@ I also agree, since we all know what the asker need. But if you remember, what I disagree is you used the 20 caps to calculate the profit and say you can earn "(120-20)*600 with a single factory per day" , and further think selling steel for 50 is profitable, just only not as profitable as normal. That is indeed wrong.

3, But what if I could take the same raw materials and make another product with them that would result in an even higher net gain than if I had made and sold steel?
@ I feel very happy when I looked this words, since it shows that you thought of the point at that moment, my answer here is that, if you really wanna reach the max.-profit status, you should calculate the profit/time in every production activity and compare them. To make it simple, calculate what you can earn in the next production activity rather than the whole.

4, I calculate the following: Steel profit = market price - accounting cost = 130 - 20.2 = 109.8. Raw materials profit = 94 - 5.2 = 88.8. Now that I have calculated the profit (based on accounting costs) for each endeavor, I can make a comparison between them (or any other endeavor for which I have calculated its profit based on accounting cost) to say that I make 109.8 - 88.8 = 21 more caps from producing steel than selling the raw materials.
@ I am even happy from this calculation in your last core statement, because from this part analysis, you will never get your wrong result. You should sell your steel more than 88.8 even if your showed cost is 20.2. Then, if now you say our difference is generally in terminology, I won't insist.


------------------
At last, I wanna share some words ( I modified a little bit from a famous ecnomics word and make it more suitable for Kapiland ^^): " Only focus on the profit from your next productivity in the game. "

Montoya Inc

Post by Montoya Inc » 26.02.2007, 04:24

You people write way too much.... Jonny simplified it in post 2 saying:
Supply and Demand

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 04:44

Klasanov:

You don't lose money through selling lower than you otherwise could,
----Really? Do you still think so If you sell me a advanced laptop for 50 euro and I immediately re-sell it to another one higher in front of you?

or turning the product into something different.
----Yeah, you are right, but if you sell it quite cheap, you do lose money.

The one thing you're neglecting to think about is that there is only so much demand for coal and iron, and that he is in the steel industry, not the mining industry.
----Yes, if you are considering sell steel for 50, I recommend you product coal and iron. And this kind of logic is based on you thinking of the oppotunity cost. (Even if you don't call it in this way.)

For the rest statement
---- In the real world, never forget the utility you enjoyed by buying something you need or abandon the chance to earn money. And frankly, it is not relate to what I discuss before.

About your taxes
---- Sorry, I didn't get your interpreting after your example, if you really wanna discuss the relationship about the employee and the employer in the real world, please talk about it or give an example in detail.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 06:05

Just a quick response to your response (LOL I can't resist).

I am glad you found many of the statements made you happy. I think it shows that there is not as much disagreement between us as originally thought.

I would like to stress that that primary difference between our calculation of profits is simply whether we are calculating profit from a single step or a series of steps. As you point out in #2, there is first a profit of 70, then a loss of 20. Obviously if the final step is a loss, then it is not a wise decision. You are right that, in the steel production step, there is a loss. I am right that in the two steps combined, there is a net profit. Here there is simply a difference in what we are evaluating. I see no disagreement.

While it is generally a good idea to evaluate profit at each step of the production, I don't completely agree with your new motto "Only focus on the profit from your next productivity in the game." My reasoning is that it does not leave open the possibility of evaluating product lines where there may be a step with a loss even if the final outcome is a profit. Obviously, if the last step you intend to make is a loss, then it is not worth it. But if the loss occurs at an intermediate step, then it becomes important to evaluate the profit from the series of steps as a whole. This is why I believe it can be helpful to compare the net profit along a series of steps for each product line you would like to compare.

For clarification, my original post about steel was evaluating the profit of all steps starting with only buildings and caps leading up to the final product of steel. The purpose of the evaluation was to compare it to a completely different product line that also started with nothing but buildings and caps. I see no other way to compare the difference in profitability between these two different product lines than the way that I did other than adding up the profit in each step to get the final profit (which would be the exact same number with more work).

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 07:15

kiddbeck wrote:Klasanov:

You don't lose money through selling lower than you otherwise could,
----Really? Do you still think so If you sell me a advanced laptop for 50 euro and I immediately re-sell it to another one higher in front of you?
Unless I paid more than 50 euors for it, no. I have lost nothing.

Failed to maximize my gains, yes. That is not a loss.
or turning the product into something different.
----Yeah, you are right, but if you sell it quite cheap, you do lose money.
No, you don't.
The one thing you're neglecting to think about is that there is only so much demand for coal and iron, and that he is in the steel industry, not the mining industry.
----Yes, if you are considering sell steel for 50, I recommend you product coal and iron. And this kind of logic is based on you thinking of the oppotunity cost. (Even if you don't call it in this way.)
As would I. but to say selling steel for 50 when you can make it for 20 constitutes a loss is wrong.

Opportunity cost is an abstract concept for business planning.

Loss/profit is something that can only be calculated through accounting.
For the rest statement
---- In the real world, never forget the utility you enjoyed by buying something you need or abandon the chance to earn money. And frankly, it is not relate to what I discuss before.

About your taxes
---- Sorry, I didn't get your interpreting after your example, if you really wanna discuss the relationship about the employee and the employer in the real world, please talk about it or give an example in detail.
In the real world, your employer pays you a wage of say, 10 dollars an hour. If you worked 40 hours that week, he pays you 400 dollars minus any taxes which you must pay (medicare, social security, and the like), and he pays for your benefits such as healthcare. You aren't really paying him back anything, but you are getting less money due to taxes and you're paying for healthcare.

The employer, in turn, is taxed for hiring you as an employee (it stupid, I know). He pays into medicare and social security tax what you pay, and a few other taxes such as state unemployment and federal unemployment (which is usually very small)

For the record, I am well aware of what opportunity cost is. But Tim, selling cheap, is still making money even if he isn't maximizing his profit.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 07:18

You don't lose money through selling lower than you otherwise could,
----Really? Do you still think so If you sell me a advanced laptop for 50 euro and I immediately re-sell it to another one higher in front of you?
Really. I didn't lose money because I have gained back my production cost and I have even sold it to you at a 100% mark-up price. I don't really worry about you selling it higher because I have gained my profit already.

>.< No matter how you look at it, you still profit even if you didn't sell it at the current market price because you went past your break-even.

It is up to the person selling if he chooses to sell lower than the current market price because he really doesn't lose because he has gained back his expenses in producing that item plus he has achieved around 100 or so percent in profit. If he sells lower, he sells faster and time is very important.

I make steel, but I don't sell it. I choose to use it in expanding my buildings. Do I lose money by doing that? I don't because I am investing in my company in extending my production lines. It might be useful for some to sell their steel at the current high market rate but I chose not to because the I can use that steel to get my production faster thus sell more. I may not be selling steel that has a high price tag at the moment but I am earning quite close to the steel market because I have been able to diversify my products and supply the market with them.

I view opportunity cost as life's what if. What if I did this, what if I did that. Doing that, I waste time thinking what could have been rather than acting on what is at the moment.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 12:00

to PolymerTim
Alright, since you ingore your previous mistakes in express and then try to interpret them all along the way, I think we could stop at the point now. And my purpose has been reached, no one that read the threads will make the products and sell them less than general market price of the raw materials.

to Klasanov
You are too wise for me, sorry, I can't imagine that you tell me you can buy a advanced laptop less than 50 euro, maybe you are waiting for another yourselves. And after your "Opportunity cost is an abstract concept for business planning. " statement, I found you are really creative, I am defeated by your words... sorry to miss your following words, since I was defeated.

to ShatteredPixie
"No matter how you look at it, you still profit even if you didn't sell it at the current market price because you went past your break-even. "
---You are right here, didn't sell it at the current market price is generally not a loss, just like you sell the steel for 100, but what I disagree is you sell the steel for 50, and the raw material be can be sold for 70, why do you start the product activity? If some product and sale activity is profitable, but no one will do it in his business, don't you think it is a paradox?

Your following paragraph is totally right, but please read all the threads before you type so many words, time is important, thanks.

------------

After all, if anyone here still think producting the steel from row materials and selling it for 50 is profitable but never do it in Kapiland(unless it is hard to sell the raw materials for the same price ), I won't wanna change your mind any longer.
Last edited by Guest on 26.02.2007, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 12:34

omg such long posts who is interested in reading i just scrolled thru the posts :lol:

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.02.2007, 12:37

Montoya Inc wrote:You people write way too much.... Jonny simplified it in post 2 saying:
Supply and Demand
You are right^^

In fact we just borrow the place in the post to do another thing, I never think the power price is too high. I don't have any power plant. : )

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