I was thinking that.. now i have 14 million caps in my hand, and there are lots of small companies willing to grow and desperately need some extra cash as financing their businesses..
why cant i deposit my money to a bank governed by system or private companies? i dont want to use this cash for a while and i want other people to benefit from it?
is it possible to create a banking system for everybody's use in the game?
SAVINGS AND LOANS - AND BANKING SYSTEM (closed)
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SAVINGS AND LOANS - AND BANKING SYSTEM (closed)
Last edited by Guest on 10.04.2007, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
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Guest
I don't think the developers are going to do anything about it, so you could use contracts to carry out the money transfers. Since the system does not have any method to enforce contracts, the banking would have to be based on trust and trustworthiness.
To give a loan the borrower would send a contract of, say, 1 water to the lender for the agreed-on sum. The lender would then send a contract to the borrower: 1 water for (loan sum + interest) and the borrower would pay it back on the agreed-on date.
To get more capital for your bank you could offer time deposit services: if a player were to send money to the banker for, say, a week, the banker would pay back the sum + the agreed-on interest on the agreed-on date.
If there was a method to require collateral, trust would not be needed (although the banker could still extend loans on trust basis): a lien on a factory or a farm so that if the borrower does not pay back on the agreed-on date, the collateral is transferred to the banker (who can then sell it back to the defaulter to get his money and the interest or to the system to recover his capital).
Hmm... at some point you can sell buildings to other players, can't you? At that point the borrower could transfer the collateral building to the lender for the loan term... the lender would have to continue production as usual, though, as otherwise the loan cost would be prohibitive.
Or the production profits could be used to pay back the interest and part of the principal. I think that's the way to go (it's simpler, at least for buildings that produce raw materials without any other input). Say, a building that has cost 1,000,000 caps to build and produces, say, 20,000 caps/day in profit would then cover a loan of 1,140,000 caps over a period of week. Or it would cover the loan of 1,000,000 caps and amortize the loan and interest by 140,000 caps. If the interest was 5%/week, then it would be 50,000 caps and in this case the borrower would have to pay back 910,000 caps at the end of the week to redeem his collateral.
The banker could ask access to the borrower's book-keeping data to gauge his cash flow and base the loan decision on that information: that would be a satisfactory emulation of the way it works in the real world, if you ask me.
I have a feeling that the developers would frown on this sort of activity, though: since they are not really free-market types (they have some funky assumptions about the need to regulate transactions in the name of their definition "fairness" [and it's certainly their right, since this is their game: they have every right to do so]), they would probably shut down the operations as soon as you started them (1 water for 1,000,000 caps would show up on their logs as an irregularity and they might simply ban you as a cheater instead of cherishing this development of the Kapilands economy: development of money markets in Holland in 1500s and in Italy in 1700s was the kick-off point for the modern Western economy, after all: concentration of capital and the concept of property rights made possible the miracle that is industrial revolution).
To give a loan the borrower would send a contract of, say, 1 water to the lender for the agreed-on sum. The lender would then send a contract to the borrower: 1 water for (loan sum + interest) and the borrower would pay it back on the agreed-on date.
To get more capital for your bank you could offer time deposit services: if a player were to send money to the banker for, say, a week, the banker would pay back the sum + the agreed-on interest on the agreed-on date.
If there was a method to require collateral, trust would not be needed (although the banker could still extend loans on trust basis): a lien on a factory or a farm so that if the borrower does not pay back on the agreed-on date, the collateral is transferred to the banker (who can then sell it back to the defaulter to get his money and the interest or to the system to recover his capital).
Hmm... at some point you can sell buildings to other players, can't you? At that point the borrower could transfer the collateral building to the lender for the loan term... the lender would have to continue production as usual, though, as otherwise the loan cost would be prohibitive.
Or the production profits could be used to pay back the interest and part of the principal. I think that's the way to go (it's simpler, at least for buildings that produce raw materials without any other input). Say, a building that has cost 1,000,000 caps to build and produces, say, 20,000 caps/day in profit would then cover a loan of 1,140,000 caps over a period of week. Or it would cover the loan of 1,000,000 caps and amortize the loan and interest by 140,000 caps. If the interest was 5%/week, then it would be 50,000 caps and in this case the borrower would have to pay back 910,000 caps at the end of the week to redeem his collateral.
The banker could ask access to the borrower's book-keeping data to gauge his cash flow and base the loan decision on that information: that would be a satisfactory emulation of the way it works in the real world, if you ask me.
I have a feeling that the developers would frown on this sort of activity, though: since they are not really free-market types (they have some funky assumptions about the need to regulate transactions in the name of their definition "fairness" [and it's certainly their right, since this is their game: they have every right to do so]), they would probably shut down the operations as soon as you started them (1 water for 1,000,000 caps would show up on their logs as an irregularity and they might simply ban you as a cheater instead of cherishing this development of the Kapilands economy: development of money markets in Holland in 1500s and in Italy in 1700s was the kick-off point for the modern Western economy, after all: concentration of capital and the concept of property rights made possible the miracle that is industrial revolution).
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Guest
I am really amazed and pleased for your message..
I agree with you on that the developers will not do anything about this matter. And i believe it is not a very easy thing to simulate a real banking system within the game. they need to create some sort of a regulation (as the laws of banking in real life) which is something really hard and very detailed to do.. But developers do not have a tendency to be transparent about it. If they say they are not able to create such a system before proper development and testing process i will respect them and will wait till they finish their work about it. But i see no reason to reject this suggestion just at the beginning..
Banking system, which turns the savings back to economical system, is the fuel of economic growth. Unlike Italy, or Holland as you mentioned most of the countries developed their banking system with the hand of their government..
I have a suggestion: to fuel the growth of the small companies, there may be a savings and loans bank govern by the system, not a private one (till the necessary regulations are done). And you can make depositing your excess money to the bank a "status symbol". which is a fact in the real world. the more you earn and deposit to the bank, the more you earn status symbols. most of the people in the real world does not go and buy wines and smug about them, they generally smug about their bank account. so this will be an attraction for those who has extra cash which becomes unusable when they keep it, to deposit it to the banks.. and the state-governed bank can give out loans to the small or mid-sized companies by taking their buildings as colleterals. this will fuel the growth of small companies within the game and competition will rise all around Kapi economy. if the company does not return the loan back then system may automatically sell their buildings and cash the loan with its interest. if a player goes smart and use the loan effectively that means we will have smarter kapitalists blossoming..
i hope developers (well it turns out to be "state" in the end) will take this suggestion into account.
I agree with you on that the developers will not do anything about this matter. And i believe it is not a very easy thing to simulate a real banking system within the game. they need to create some sort of a regulation (as the laws of banking in real life) which is something really hard and very detailed to do.. But developers do not have a tendency to be transparent about it. If they say they are not able to create such a system before proper development and testing process i will respect them and will wait till they finish their work about it. But i see no reason to reject this suggestion just at the beginning..
Banking system, which turns the savings back to economical system, is the fuel of economic growth. Unlike Italy, or Holland as you mentioned most of the countries developed their banking system with the hand of their government..
I have a suggestion: to fuel the growth of the small companies, there may be a savings and loans bank govern by the system, not a private one (till the necessary regulations are done). And you can make depositing your excess money to the bank a "status symbol". which is a fact in the real world. the more you earn and deposit to the bank, the more you earn status symbols. most of the people in the real world does not go and buy wines and smug about them, they generally smug about their bank account. so this will be an attraction for those who has extra cash which becomes unusable when they keep it, to deposit it to the banks.. and the state-governed bank can give out loans to the small or mid-sized companies by taking their buildings as colleterals. this will fuel the growth of small companies within the game and competition will rise all around Kapi economy. if the company does not return the loan back then system may automatically sell their buildings and cash the loan with its interest. if a player goes smart and use the loan effectively that means we will have smarter kapitalists blossoming..
i hope developers (well it turns out to be "state" in the end) will take this suggestion into account.
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Guest
go here for all your info
http://www.forum.kapilands.com/viewtopic.php?t=1121
http://www.forum.kapilands.com/viewtopic.php?t=1121
or just read thisTycoon wrote:We had this item in one of the former versions (or maybe two? I am not sure, as I do not know the very first one). The second version of the game has been running for aprox. 4 years now and today there is a percentage of maybe 0,01% of the users using these loans.
Users did not want to have it. That was the reason why it had not been taken to the next versions... If you reach the level manager, you can, however, get loans from a system's bank...
And even the rank of being a billionaire does not stop the people from cheating or to open multiple accounts...
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Balaam:
>but maybe detrimental to the dame atmosphere.
Let's examine your suggestion. There would be one more method to generate revenue besides B2B and retail. How would that degrade the atmosphere in the game? Nobody else would know of loans except the banker and the borrower. And there would be a whole new class of faxes in our offices: loan offers. Bankers could compete on loan terms to get customers.
Bilge:
>most of the countries developed their banking system
>with the hand of their government..
That's not quite true. Modern banking systems are completely corporatist, that's true (bankers have colluded with the state to monopolize the money system; they have replaced the commodity money and its limited availability with infinitely printable fiat money based on debt, since this makes it possible for the bankers and the people working for the state [politicians, officials, bureaucrats] to get something [actual products] for nothing [printed paper or computer-generated bits]), but the banking industry definitely originated in the free market.
In fact, "caps" are really an unnecessary artifact. You could just as easily use, say, kilowatt hours or gold as the monetary unit in this game, and if it were possible to frame the contracts in units other than caps, then the market would select the monetary unit of the game, whether it were AUG (gold gram) or kWh.
Astrologer:
The situation is not analogous, since now it's a player who'd like to run a bank instead of the developers foisting their system on the players.
>but maybe detrimental to the dame atmosphere.
Let's examine your suggestion. There would be one more method to generate revenue besides B2B and retail. How would that degrade the atmosphere in the game? Nobody else would know of loans except the banker and the borrower. And there would be a whole new class of faxes in our offices: loan offers. Bankers could compete on loan terms to get customers.
Bilge:
>most of the countries developed their banking system
>with the hand of their government..
That's not quite true. Modern banking systems are completely corporatist, that's true (bankers have colluded with the state to monopolize the money system; they have replaced the commodity money and its limited availability with infinitely printable fiat money based on debt, since this makes it possible for the bankers and the people working for the state [politicians, officials, bureaucrats] to get something [actual products] for nothing [printed paper or computer-generated bits]), but the banking industry definitely originated in the free market.
In fact, "caps" are really an unnecessary artifact. You could just as easily use, say, kilowatt hours or gold as the monetary unit in this game, and if it were possible to frame the contracts in units other than caps, then the market would select the monetary unit of the game, whether it were AUG (gold gram) or kWh.
Astrologer:
The situation is not analogous, since now it's a player who'd like to run a bank instead of the developers foisting their system on the players.
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Guest
The monetary system's not monopolized. I'm looking at independently-printed money right now. They call it a "gift certificate" and I plan on purchasing a steak with it later this week.bankers have colluded with the state to monopolize the money system
Anyway, re: Kap, I can believe the market would have little use for this system as Tycoon's 0,01% figure suggests. I somewhat doubt that lenders and borrowers could agree on rate, duration, and risk assessment.
Rate: Firstly, a time-based rate would continue to accrue costs for someone who took a break from the game. That's against one of the principles.
Secondly, a loan would only happen if the borrower is capable of getting better ROIC than the lender, thus making possible an interest rate in the middle. It's not impossible but I am a little skeptical.
Duration: Most likely you would have long-term borrowers, short-term lenders. And more of the former than the latter. The bank simply wouldn't be liquid enough to survive without the backing of a larger institution (say a "monopolizing state with infinitely printable fiat money").
Risk: Most seriously, how do you assess lending risk in a game where any of us could press reset, or walk away forever, at any time? You'd need some intricate collateral system which is very complex to write and again potentially punitive to anyone who breaks from the game.
Using Bilge as an example, I don't know why he doesn't want to invest in productive property with his cash right now, but I assume he knows his business. And I'll take for granted that "long term" is also long enough to appeal to the lender. But I also suspect he wants that money to be there when he wants it, and ultimately there's no guarantee for that.
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Guest
yes, Astrologer is right: in one of the former versions, users could construct a building called "bank" and give loans to other companies... fix their special agreements on interest etc.
This was, however, either used by people who wanted to cheat or nearly not at all, the players just did not want to have it... That's why there is this bank from the system.
I will pass the proposal to have something where you can maybe spend excess money on to the people who will be responsible for further versions. I doubt that this will be done here...
There will definitely not be anything where users can lend money from other users... as mainly cheaters would profit from that system.
And I think nearly 90% of you users want to have a nearly perfect system for finding cheaters. This, however, means that there are some rules which maybe seem senseless at first sight and that there are also options which cannot be used.
btw: if you have too much money, there are lots of other items you can do: contests, special buildings, build a hobby branch... just for fun
Btw: I know that there are systems of newbie help in the German version. I do not know, how they work, but if you want to, I can try to find that out.
This was, however, either used by people who wanted to cheat or nearly not at all, the players just did not want to have it... That's why there is this bank from the system.
I will pass the proposal to have something where you can maybe spend excess money on to the people who will be responsible for further versions. I doubt that this will be done here...
There will definitely not be anything where users can lend money from other users... as mainly cheaters would profit from that system.
And I think nearly 90% of you users want to have a nearly perfect system for finding cheaters. This, however, means that there are some rules which maybe seem senseless at first sight and that there are also options which cannot be used.
btw: if you have too much money, there are lots of other items you can do: contests, special buildings, build a hobby branch... just for fun
Btw: I know that there are systems of newbie help in the German version. I do not know, how they work, but if you want to, I can try to find that out.
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Guest
To earn the monicker "money", the gift certificate would have to be accepted by a sufficient user population. This is not the case, as there is only one place where it has value: the store that printed it. It can be a bit difficult to buy, for example, gasoline with that gift certificate.Knolls wrote:The monetary system's not monopolized. I'm looking at independently-printed money right now. They call it a "gift certificate" and I plan on purchasing a steak with it later this week.bankers have colluded with the state to monopolize the money system
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Guest
Oh now we're just squibbling over semantics. Who says what's "significant"? Before switching to the Euro, Luxembourg printed Francs for currency. At a population of 430,000, that is statistically insignificant to the number of people who would want American Dollars. Are you saying their currency wasn't money?
Its money if you can use it as a placeholder for something of real value. Thus the Gift Certificate I described is real enough to me, and I expect I could barter with it if I tried. Obviously its not about to replace real currency, but not because of collusion. Its because people want the most stable and widely-available money for their own security.
You can print your own money today. You can't counterfeit someone else's, but you can print your own. I know of several towns around the US that have done just that, as an attempt to get people to spend local instead of going out of town. It's also been done by several towns in South America (specifically in Argentina) out of desperation to keep their economy going.
Printing money isn't a monopoly. You just have to convince someone to take it.
Its money if you can use it as a placeholder for something of real value. Thus the Gift Certificate I described is real enough to me, and I expect I could barter with it if I tried. Obviously its not about to replace real currency, but not because of collusion. Its because people want the most stable and widely-available money for their own security.
You can print your own money today. You can't counterfeit someone else's, but you can print your own. I know of several towns around the US that have done just that, as an attempt to get people to spend local instead of going out of town. It's also been done by several towns in South America (specifically in Argentina) out of desperation to keep their economy going.
Printing money isn't a monopoly. You just have to convince someone to take it.
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Guest
I am pleased to read what was written on the thread..
I dont know where to start.. my beginning point was openning a bank for myself.. because i am banker in real life and i would like to that if i could.. that would be more joyful for me in the game.. I am earning a significant amount of money with steel production and mining but i would enjoy it if i could be a banker in the game..
thats why i dont want to go any charity thing or special building:) for fun:)
about state-governed banking system: i just mentioned it to reinforce an urge (which may be slightly possible) within the hearts of admin. i am not claiming that banking system is not corporatist.. the roots and the progress of it is lying in Weber's and Benjamin Franklins protestant ethic issues. whatever i didnt want to go too deep within the subject..
if a decision comes along about creating a private banking system within the game i believe colateral and other issues can be solved. bans and punitive measures can be done..
result: i see no intention and i sincerely respect that..
I dont know where to start.. my beginning point was openning a bank for myself.. because i am banker in real life and i would like to that if i could.. that would be more joyful for me in the game.. I am earning a significant amount of money with steel production and mining but i would enjoy it if i could be a banker in the game..
thats why i dont want to go any charity thing or special building:) for fun:)
about state-governed banking system: i just mentioned it to reinforce an urge (which may be slightly possible) within the hearts of admin. i am not claiming that banking system is not corporatist.. the roots and the progress of it is lying in Weber's and Benjamin Franklins protestant ethic issues. whatever i didnt want to go too deep within the subject..
if a decision comes along about creating a private banking system within the game i believe colateral and other issues can be solved. bans and punitive measures can be done..
result: i see no intention and i sincerely respect that..
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Guest
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Guest