INCINTIVES FOR UNPROFETABLE SECTORES

Ideas how the game could be improved and suggestions for subsequent versions of the game. (this is just a space for ideas! We can't guarantee suggestions will be implemented!)

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Guest

Post by Guest » 04.08.2010, 09:22

First off, if you could simply 'switch' your buildings purpose, it would elimintate the need for more buildings...
This method would only be used to focus in 1 'most profitable' field, which wouldn't be profitable, along with changing prices, for much more than a few days... that's a little TOO dynamic for anyones likings.
For example, if two thousand players all started changing towards animal food, because prices got so high, the prices would drop again swiftly, and they'd have consumed all their resources trying to diversify, and would be stuck with a non-profitable field to make no money back.
(If the NPC has unlimited wood/stone/steel, obviously prices won't increase 'due to lack of production'.)

If the demand for products was allowed to increase the prices/profits as dramatically as you suggest, the entire economy would become dangerously unstable. For established players, profit would become TOO easy. New players wouldn't know where to start. The tutorial dumps all new players into fruits. If their prices were too low, new players would be screwed before they even leave the tutorial.

Now, if demand was met, in all fields, due to a drop in demand, AND all prices dropped drastically, the only fix to avoid all round profit distaster, would be to lose supply, which means losing players.

The intended 'more profitable fields' such as TV's, should be capped by longer expansion waits... to balance the overal 'profits' to be made in all fields slightly.
Besides, it's got to be easier, realistically speaking, to prepare a large field of dirt for your seeds, than it is of a large efactory full of high performance machinery capable of producing thousands of microscopic components every day.

I think the demand levels were slightly influenced by server player capacity and potential supply...

Most of what I've expressed on this post, is speculation based on limited knowledge.

Being able to diversify would mean all players are FORCED to diversify, constantly. this would eliminate the point of researching higher qualities in your specialty fields. And I certainly wouldn't want my setup to have to change because 20,000 players all decided to do cars today, and then start on toothpaste, just to find cars are most profitable again. It would take too long, it would cost too much.
I don't want to diversify... I'm more than happy to focus on cars. And I AM going to eventually drive prices of cars DOWN. It's pure determination. High quality, low price, puts ME in control of the cars market.

Now why would I want to bother with that if in 2 days it's going to be overflowing with companies doing it? What would I do instead? stuffed animals? woot woot... I didn't buy coins for that.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that if demand was met, prices would be forced down anyway... but that's not going to happen because, as you rightly said, players are choosing to sell products at the maximum possible cost, so they're simply not selling as fast.
What's wrong with high quality at low prices? THAT would sell like hot cakes, and make some REAL competition. Demand would be met, and prices would be forced to go down.
So perhaps, I like the idea of capping the maximum cost of an item sale price. besides, I can't remember the last time I went to my supermarket to find the price of bananas at

Guest

Post by Guest » 04.08.2010, 14:36

Believe me, research is worth it even with the research only being a small portion of your company. That isn't really an issue. You can see my calculations somewhere on this board, but a gas RC of 90 is worth about 105 billion to a large gas seller (about 12 million/day).

By forcing diversity, you force thinking. That may not be great if you just want to sit back and develop a long term business plan, but if you're like me, and you play this game to try to stretch yourself a little bit, then thinking on how to diversify is a good thing.

A smart business owner wouldn't spend billions changing his entire company over to XXX just because the profits looked pretty good. A smart business owner would pick 5-20 products that have good profits, then they would branch out a little bit. That act of branching out gives less risk, and you would still gain the ability to change your company again later.

The problem really is that supply doesn't effect demand, and it should. In a real market, supply changes constantly, and demand changes just as often. Right now banana's aren't $15 each in the supermarket, but if the supply was as low as it is in Kapi, and the demand as high, you better believe the prices would be much higher than $15 each.

Everything works itself out using a perfect market economy, and in a business sim, you can let everything work itself out by forcing it to. Making everything change dynamically, but not randomly, rewards diversity, and rewards thinking. You could go on selling cars, even if you sell them at a loss. That is your business decision, and it doesn't matter how smart or dumb it is, business isn't about consistency, it's about constant change.

Guest

Post by Guest » 04.08.2010, 19:11

And to be honest, I personally don't think kapilands should be about constant change.
I think it's the consistency that keeps the player numbers consistent.

I think you're trying to make too much out of a good thing. This is one of the few games online that I can find that allow you to sit back and relax, earn some caps, give yourself a name, and NOT have to constantly rack your brain over losing half of what you own due to a sudden entire game turnaround.

I probably should mention that I play about a bazillion online games, and kapilands is the only place where I can put as much, or as little, thought into it as I wish, and still reap some kind of reward.

Like I said before, if I had to start altering my resources and switching building types, staring at scrolls of figures that endlessly change and constantly wonder if I'll even have a business the next day, I'd be forced to retire...
And I'm sure that many new players would feel the same way. I've been playing kapilands on and off for two years, and there are still factors I haven't got to grips with. What you're talking about, is an entire new game setup... Not just a few tweaks to the economy layout.

Guest

Post by Guest » 04.08.2010, 21:41

Didnt really read page 3.

TVs, wardrobes, gas, jewellery -, cars have I missed out one profitable good? Talking bout R2, TVs, jewellery & cars are stuck at max stats. Everybody seem to sell gas & wardrobes but they are far away from the max -> all retailers could make more money/item if they were more patient - they obviously are not. Huge sales so single players behaviour does not make a difference. I think its dead hilarious to see this phenomenon on nearly any realm I played so far: most profitable products are still profitable, but they could be even more - too many selling them ruins profits...

Selling goods not everybody sells plus well above max stats possible is an option, I think - rather than a technical solution to this "problem".

Not the game shoul be rethought, rather a players retailing strategy. If I found out how you can make more out of a little, it cannot really be that hard.

When I take a look on my balance sheet there is a profit of 100k or something - I should not think of what I spent on research & expansions and what I dollect everyday out my shops - but research & expansions will be profitable in the longterm...

Dopamin
Last edited by Guest on 05.08.2010, 04:42, edited 2 times in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » 04.08.2010, 23:09

I have to agree with everything you just said, Dopamin.
It's funny how you can say in one paragraph, what takes me a near 2 pages to 'sort of' explain.

I'd donate a few more thoughts, but like you said... 3 pages of blah is too much. :?

Guest

Post by Guest » 05.08.2010, 04:47

sorry bogeyboy,

my concentration started to go down on page two already - page 3 it was totally gone so I did not even read all of the first two pages... It was late when I first answered (sorry for all the spelling mistakes), and I will be off to bed now shortly... :oops:

Anyway, I would really appreciate if the possibility would be implemented to retail coffee powder Q0 at 200 instead of 20, but for some reason that will not be done, I am afraid ... :roll:

Dopamin

Guest

Post by Guest » 05.08.2010, 07:40

I think you're right there... Since I'd like for cars to be saleable at Q0 for 200,000 and I overheard someone saying seeds at Q0 for 650?

I don't know... I think the advice was something about using your own resources instead of buying overpriced on the market? I can't remember now... but urm... at 7am, I'm kinda glad my coffee isn't 200... mind you, 20 is a bit much... I'm sure the shopkeeper is cheating me. :cry:

Guest

Post by Guest » 05.08.2010, 20:37

Well, about cars I do not think you can complain about the retail prices (only though at q0), but some other goods, the average retail prices (which are shown by the stats) point out that many retailers do waste a hell of a lot of caps with every item they sell...

:wink:

Dopamin

Guest

Post by Guest » 05.08.2010, 21:29

If you're talking profit, then that depends on how they came about gaining the goods in the first place.

Whatever you sell, you can make a tidy profit if you produce it all yourself from scratch.
It seems that buying anything via market or contract forces you to raise the prices of retail drastically. Something as simple as strawberries can be made for pennies, and sold for 10 caps... Buying it on the market can cost 4x that on occasions.
Of course that's going to take a long time to sell in retail stores if you want to profit at all. And of course that's going to reduce the supply of demand ratio.

In my opinion, and I hope someone can prove me wrong... If you aren't happy with the supply/demand ratio, or the retail values of goods, produce them WITHOUT the help of contracts and market purchases, and sell them at a realistic price in stores.
I'm sure that if we all did that, we'd all meet demand pretty quick. Prices would be forced down, and the economy would be more dynamic, as requested.

Guest

Post by Guest » 05.08.2010, 22:31

We are in a simulation, this makes it possible things like fruit does never go off - this makes it possible to act different like in the real economics.
bogeyboy corp wrote:If you're talking profit, then that depends on how they came about gaining the goods in the first place.
I could make 5 Caps profit/item, if I simply put this 5 on top of the strawberries I might have bought for 20 (IF that much). Now there are stats caps. For strawberies the cap is at 24. Nothing keeps me away charging 50 for strawberries - which ends up in 30/item. Now there is the average q/price which decides (as long as the demand is not anywhere near being met by the supplies as far as I understood) how fast my strawberries will be sold. Here comes the point of these "outsider goods" which are hardly sold which leaves space to fiddle about with the stats.
bogeyboy corp wrote:Whatever you sell, you can make a tidy profit if you produce it all yourself from scratch.
It seems that buying anything via market or contract forces you to raise the prices of retail drastically. Something as simple as strawberries can be made for pennies, and sold for 10 caps... Buying it on the market can cost 4x that on occasions.
Of course that's going to take a long time to sell in retail stores if you want to profit at all. And of course that's going to reduce the supply of demand ratio.
Fruit Q0 are often bought not for retail but status points - in my opinion, this gives a good an extra on the price especially if you can deliver a nice little amount.

Fruit plantations are not really the most profitable facilities in kapilands as long as fruit are not dealt at a certain price - its pointless producing/selling fruit then as long as you do not need the sales to survive. This behaviour will quite fast let people call you greedy - well my tiny company is not a charity organization, any others isn't either, is it? :wink:
bogeyboy corp wrote:In my opinion, and I hope someone can prove me wrong... If you aren't happy with the supply/demand ratio, or the retail values of goods, produce them WITHOUT the help of contracts and market purchases, and sell them at a realistic price in stores.
I'm sure that if we all did that, we'd all meet demand pretty quick. Prices would be forced down, and the economy would be more dynamic, as requested.
Sell your goods at prices you want, sooner or later they will be bought - thats my policy - sell it cheaper you make faster profits, but I am quite patient... 8)

Dopamin

Guest

Post by Guest » 06.08.2010, 06:30

Dopamin wrote:Now there is the average q/price which decides (as long as the demand is not anywhere near being met by the supplies as far as I understood) how fast my strawberries will be sold. Here comes the point of these "outsider goods" which are hardly sold which leaves space to fiddle about with the stats.
I'm trying to work out, do you think this is a benefit or a deficit to the game?

Now my understanding is that this topic was opened in the hope that the constants are stopped, and that tomorrow you could be totally wrong.

Guest

Post by Guest » 06.08.2010, 20:53

bogeyboy corp wrote:I'm trying to work out, do you think this is a benefit or a deficit to the game?
I would say neither nor. Its soemthing to work with...
bogeyboy corp wrote:Now my understanding is that this topic was opened in the hope that the constants are stopped, and that tomorrow you could be totally wrong.
My understanding this was more like a ranting topic - so I never took this really too serious... Since english is not my native language, I might be too sensitive about this...

Dopamin

Guest

Post by Guest » 26.09.2010, 12:00

bogeyboy corp wrote: I mean just look at the prices. Water for 0,25? it costs me 0,1 to make.
Power at 0,26? costs me 0,3 and seeds for 0,26... again costs me 0,3...
0,3 is greater than 0,26. Just saying. Seeds Q0 are not worth the effort if you're going to sell.

I would like to see people stop being such capitalist pigs. Some prices are getting out of hand. Most things are terribly overpriced when they don't need to be.

Guest

Post by Guest » 04.10.2010, 01:06

Ill just address a few things I saw while ive got a minute =) Go to the very bottom for a short version =)

I think there is a very good argument for creating interchangeable buildings but it could also be argued that we already have this to an extent, ever seen a mine that can produce 7-8 different items with no change in location? We already have buildings that span several industries but I think that there should be an ability to alter a business structure but it should not be cheap. Like 5x the FA price expensive and take more than a few days to achive but there must be some sort of system should we ever try to balance the industries to any extent.

There is some concern that this kind of ability will generate hyper-fluctuation in the market with players ducking in and out of industries like a yo-yo but I dont think this is feasible simple due to the value of research and risk/reward scenarios. Yes is we made all industries equal and introduces this there would be a massive flux whilst we figured out the value of each market but this will calm down as we settle into a strand and begin to increase our Q. Then if an industry does spike I doubt many people (and I mean large scale producers) will risk a week/months profit with no guarantee that the risk will pay off.

The only market we currently see this is diamond rings, they hit the max demand and suddenly my selling time triples. This dosent cause too much of an upset since im happy to flip to golden necks until it falls again. Its basic Keynesian economics

At dopa, I think we must look at what I call the sweet spot when considering any industry, the place where volume sold creates the best overall profit. SO yes you can sell your strawberries for 200c ea but your not gona make the same level of profit off them as selling for 30c will with high volumes but lower margins.

I think there is also a level of store orientation that is forcing higher prices. The way the production system is structured it makes production the playground of newer players and once they level up they will usually lean towards stores and as their ability to sell outstrips their production they rely on new producers more and more for production goods. It works perfectly as long as there is a good supply of fresh players producing for established players. Problem is we are running out of new blood and its beginning to tell, spiking prices are to my mind a result of players moving more and more towards retail with no new players coming in to replace them. The final blow is the new players that are coming up are taking advantage of higher prices to leapfrog levels and are transferring to the perceived higher level of retail even more rapidly than ever before. Its a recipe for disaster, a rot thats beginning to sap the margins of our stores and push ever more players towards the NPC wardrobe sector!

My list of wishes is:
One > remove the NPC in increments, it start stepping up price caps by 5% a month until we can either match production or decentralize off high demand industries. Then remove it altogether. I think we can adjust to 5% even without a build swap system.
Two > Make a formula that works with demand, so until 50% demand is met Time is at 100%, 60% = 105%, 70% = 125%, 80% = 150%, 90 = 200% and at 100 percent of demand its 300% time so 3 times the sales time for any item. Once the market establishes itself we can look at what prices are sitting and make adjustments if necessary
Three > Make the buildings interchangeable at lest for a small time period so we can decentralize our industries rapidly
Four > Powerplants/stone mines/water wells should be cut to 15 mins/m^2 to address the NPC reliance issue
Five > Simpley remove the price caps on all retail items
Six > Work on the production to retail balance (I have no idea how exactly)
Seven > If there is no food the demand for high level goods, tvs jewels ect should fall drastically so we should have a thriving "basic necessity" industry before we can sell any kind of luxury goods. This will create a sort of transferal system where we can climb the ladder to better goods as was intended at the games conception

Somethings hast to give and unfortunate its going to the player base it we see this kind of problem occur again.

Here is a revised short version!
We need a building change system, even for the short term if we get industries balanced
Hyper-Fluctuation will occur but should settle once we get going and research into any one industry
We need to address the problem of fewer new players reducing overall production and increasing inflation across the game
This game is to a large extent a thinking wo/mans game but there will always be set and forget industries where you can be ensured a fair profit, perhaps not as much as a growing sector but enough never the less
More here later I hope

My 2c
H

Guest

Post by Guest » 13.11.2010, 11:44

Horizon Holdings wrote:At dopa, I think we must look at what I call the sweet spot when considering any industry, the place where volume sold creates the best overall profit. SO yes you can sell your strawberries for 200c ea but your not gona make the same level of profit off them as selling for 30c will with high volumes but lower margins.
Horizon,

due to me being quite lost when it comes to excel was so far more guessing than anything else - due to some kind of whateverthisiscalledinenglish I might come to an andvanced level being able to use this program so there is a lot of space - just needs a bit more fiddling about, thinking, and further fiddling...

Back to strawberries: Current Stats are (R2): 11,50

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