I'm not sure you caught my point, Klasnov. I wasn't declaring anyone insignificant. I'm saying if Luxembourg counts, as obviously it does, then clearly gift certificates/cards should count too. They amounted to around 80 billion dollars in 2006 in the US alone. How can you say that is not "a sufficient user population?"
Secondly, Luxembourg Francs (different from French Francs btw) are only wanted by commodoties traders for the purpose of doing business with Luxembourg. Walmart certificates are only wanted by people for the purpose of doing business with Walmart.
Widgetry is saying that one is money and the other isn't. I'm saying that's an arbitrary distinction. Anything is money if you can get it for something of value, and trade it for something of value later.
SAVINGS AND LOANS - AND BANKING SYSTEM (closed)
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Guest
I think there is a very huge misunderstanding or confusion about semantics here..
how do you define money? and whats the difference between money and currency? a very basic question to be answered to be able to communicate here i guess..
my personal opinion about certificates or lux franc is; if it works as medium of exchange, or if it is used by any number of population as an exchange medium of services or goods than whatever it is, it is called money.. and i believe it is a kind of currency like USD, EUR or CHF since it has own exchange rate with respect to other currencies.
how do you define money? and whats the difference between money and currency? a very basic question to be answered to be able to communicate here i guess..
my personal opinion about certificates or lux franc is; if it works as medium of exchange, or if it is used by any number of population as an exchange medium of services or goods than whatever it is, it is called money.. and i believe it is a kind of currency like USD, EUR or CHF since it has own exchange rate with respect to other currencies.
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Guest
No.
Money is a form of currency that is accepted for a wide variety of goods.
Just because people buy 80 billion dollars worth in gift certificates each year doesn't make it money. Gift certificates are a store credit for pre-paid merchandise, which isn't money.
For it to be money, you'd need to be able to buy a car with your gift certificates.
And bilge, money and currency are the same thing.
There's no semantics here. Just a confusion of what is and what isn't.
Money is a form of currency that is accepted for a wide variety of goods.
Just because people buy 80 billion dollars worth in gift certificates each year doesn't make it money. Gift certificates are a store credit for pre-paid merchandise, which isn't money.
For it to be money, you'd need to be able to buy a car with your gift certificates.
And bilge, money and currency are the same thing.
There's no semantics here. Just a confusion of what is and what isn't.
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Guest
So I win?
Or are you going to pick some other arbitrary distinction?
I'll save you time. Even if you found some product for which there are no retailers issuing gift cards, I would sell it to you if you offered me enough of them. I'm sure you could find others open to a little arbitrage as well. Sure, I'd require a lot of them, but don't all currencies have exchange rates?
Or are you going to pick some other arbitrary distinction?
I'll save you time. Even if you found some product for which there are no retailers issuing gift cards, I would sell it to you if you offered me enough of them. I'm sure you could find others open to a little arbitrage as well. Sure, I'd require a lot of them, but don't all currencies have exchange rates?
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Guest
That says nothing about buying a car with gift certificates for steak.
Which is what I was getting at.
Your gift card is something you bought with cash, yes. It is something of value, and it is something you can exchange any time for a steak. That, however, does not make it cash.
You could buy a bunch of those things, and sell them to a friend in exchange for a car, or some other item you wanted if he wanted steaks badly enough.
That still does not make it cash, because they are not something you can just buy anything with.
Which is what I was getting at.
Your gift card is something you bought with cash, yes. It is something of value, and it is something you can exchange any time for a steak. That, however, does not make it cash.
You could buy a bunch of those things, and sell them to a friend in exchange for a car, or some other item you wanted if he wanted steaks badly enough.
That still does not make it cash, because they are not something you can just buy anything with.
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Guest
Thats what for sure.. we agree on disagreeing each other:)
Money and currency is definitely not the same thing.. Money is the general term used for the media that makes the people exhange goods and services between each other.. Currency is a form of money that may vary country to country or economy to economy.. Main title is money, subtitle is currency. Money is the printed paper, or gold coin that you use. currency is the type of it, either Euro or US Dollar.. They are both money but different currencies..
Money and currency is definitely not the same thing.. Money is the general term used for the media that makes the people exhange goods and services between each other.. Currency is a form of money that may vary country to country or economy to economy.. Main title is money, subtitle is currency. Money is the printed paper, or gold coin that you use. currency is the type of it, either Euro or US Dollar.. They are both money but different currencies..
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Guest
Yeah if you don't want to see it that way, I can't make you and I have no incentive to try. I just honestly think there's no incentive in taking the narrow view. Everyone knows the difference between a Euro and a Walmart gift certificate. But if you only see the differences, you're missing the chance to see the world in a larger, more comprehensive way.
Here's how I see it:
I can pretty much guarantee the guy who invented this site wasn't hung up on traditional definitions. He created his own exchange for this "money", just like the known exchanges for more traditional money. Because of that he's able to provide a service and make a profit. I admire that, and if we'd had this conversation a few years ago I'd like to think I could have beat him to it.
Here's how I see it:
- Luxembourg Francs aren't a dominant world currency, but there is a specific, small but significant subset of people who very much want them. Walmart Certs aren't a dominant world currency, but there is a specific, (slightly larger) source that want them.
- I can't use a Walmart Certificate at Outback Steakhouse. I can't use a Lux Franc in Cleveland, Ohio.
- I can get value from my Lux Franc by trading them to someone who wants them, for a currency I can use in Cleveland. I can get value from my Walmart Cert by trading it to someone who wants it, for a form I can use at Outback Steakhouse.
- Only the Luxembourg government can print they're Francs, and they are ultimately responsible for their value. Only Walmart can print Walmart Gift Certificiates, and they are ultimately responsible for redeeming them.
- Walmart certificates will be worthless if Walmart goes out of business. Lux Francs will be worthless if the Luxembourg government folds (gets conquered, has a coup, etc).
- Neither Walmart certs or Lux Francs have inherent value. You can't eat them, drive them, live in them, or stare at them for entertainment. They're only worth what you can get for them later.
I can pretty much guarantee the guy who invented this site wasn't hung up on traditional definitions. He created his own exchange for this "money", just like the known exchanges for more traditional money. Because of that he's able to provide a service and make a profit. I admire that, and if we'd had this conversation a few years ago I'd like to think I could have beat him to it.
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Guest
*sigh*
narrow view?
There is no need to be so insulting.
Anyway.
Do you consider your computer to be money?
You can sell it. You can trade it in for something else. Does that make it money, then?
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Bilge, do you not trade goods and services with currency?
They're the same thing. Euros and dollars are different forms of currency, but they're still both the same thing. The name doesn't matter for their purpose.
narrow view?
There is no need to be so insulting.
Anyway.
Do you consider your computer to be money?
You can sell it. You can trade it in for something else. Does that make it money, then?
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Bilge, do you not trade goods and services with currency?
They're the same thing. Euros and dollars are different forms of currency, but they're still both the same thing. The name doesn't matter for their purpose.
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Guest
Re: SAVINGS AND LOANS - AND BANKING SYSTEM
[quote="Bilge"]I was thinking that.. now i have 14 million caps in my hand, and there are lots of small companies willing to grow and desperately need some extra cash as financing their businesses..
Why cant I deposit my money to a bank governed by system or private companies? I don
Why cant I deposit my money to a bank governed by system or private companies? I don
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Guest
Does that mean the US dollars that I have in my safe aren't cash, because I'd have to go to the bank to exchange them before I bought a car?Klasanov wrote:That says nothing about buying a car with gift certificates for steak.
Which is what I was getting at.
Your gift card is something you bought with cash, yes. It is something of value, and it is something you can exchange any time for a steak. That, however, does not make it cash.
You could buy a bunch of those things, and sell them to a friend in exchange for a car, or some other item you wanted if he wanted steaks badly enough.
That still does not make it cash, because they are not something you can just buy anything with.
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Guest
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Guest
Im just gonna say somethings in the order they appear in this thread.
A gift certificate is money. I can use my gift certificate and get a candy bar. I could also use some Swedish Krona to get the same candy bar. The Krona would only be accepted in Sweden and the certificate in certain stores. The function of it is the same, it makes trade a lot easier.
Outside of Sweden or this store its just the same. The actually value is really nothing. This of course all depends on what currency we are talking about but most currencies are valued on a free market. This same free market will value my certificate.
Someone who wants to EXPORT things to france doesn't need any francs at all, someone who wants to IMPORT from france wont need francs either cause they use euro. If you still want to IMPORT you will need some Euroes tho which can be aquired at a currency exchange market.
Money is just a medium of exchange to make it all easier. Money can therefore be certificates or different types of currency.
I said before that most currencies are valued at market level. This means that no government can decide on how much the dollar or whatever is worth. They can but then it wouldn't be a free market. The Swedish government decided how much a Swedish Krona was supposed to be worth untill the early 90's... it ruined the country. Hardly any democratic countries have this system. Governments and central banks can however use different tools to try to alter the exchange rate of a currency, therefore changing its value.
A credit card is not even close to beeing "money" or a gift certificate. When you purchase something with a credit card you borrow money. A gift certificate or "money" has a value in its own that is probably more than the material it is made of. The credit card is only worth the plastic its made out of.
To read that someone educated in banking and finance say some of these things makes me seriously question the educational systems. But then maybe you failed your exam.
A gift certificate is money. I can use my gift certificate and get a candy bar. I could also use some Swedish Krona to get the same candy bar. The Krona would only be accepted in Sweden and the certificate in certain stores. The function of it is the same, it makes trade a lot easier.
Outside of Sweden or this store its just the same. The actually value is really nothing. This of course all depends on what currency we are talking about but most currencies are valued on a free market. This same free market will value my certificate.
Someone who wants to EXPORT things to france doesn't need any francs at all, someone who wants to IMPORT from france wont need francs either cause they use euro. If you still want to IMPORT you will need some Euroes tho which can be aquired at a currency exchange market.
Money is just a medium of exchange to make it all easier. Money can therefore be certificates or different types of currency.
I said before that most currencies are valued at market level. This means that no government can decide on how much the dollar or whatever is worth. They can but then it wouldn't be a free market. The Swedish government decided how much a Swedish Krona was supposed to be worth untill the early 90's... it ruined the country. Hardly any democratic countries have this system. Governments and central banks can however use different tools to try to alter the exchange rate of a currency, therefore changing its value.
A credit card is not even close to beeing "money" or a gift certificate. When you purchase something with a credit card you borrow money. A gift certificate or "money" has a value in its own that is probably more than the material it is made of. The credit card is only worth the plastic its made out of.
To read that someone educated in banking and finance say some of these things makes me seriously question the educational systems. But then maybe you failed your exam.
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Guest
Actually I took first place at state in banking and finance.
Credit extends the value of money, but it does have its consequences if you don't take control of it.
And in the case of credit cards, you can pay it off at the end of the month and not get charged any interest. Much less cumbersome than a check, or paper.
However no, its not money. Not exactly. But, it extends your purchasing power to a lot more than what you would normally have given the current time, so it is pretty close.
Credit extends the value of money, but it does have its consequences if you don't take control of it.
And in the case of credit cards, you can pay it off at the end of the month and not get charged any interest. Much less cumbersome than a check, or paper.
However no, its not money. Not exactly. But, it extends your purchasing power to a lot more than what you would normally have given the current time, so it is pretty close.
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Guest
If credit ads to the value of money it is the same as money.
And yes, some cards do offer that if you pay your debt the same month you dont have to pay interest. These cards most often have an annual fee and the stores have to pay a percentage of your purchase to the creditcard company. This should be seen as a sort of fixed interest.
And yes, some cards do offer that if you pay your debt the same month you dont have to pay interest. These cards most often have an annual fee and the stores have to pay a percentage of your purchase to the creditcard company. This should be seen as a sort of fixed interest.