Steel

[BuffaloSabres]

The NPC account is to close to the actual price of what steel is going for. There is only a 5 cap difference of what steel usually sells for. I think if you moved it up to, example 140, it would be a lot better.

[Guest]

lol, if you have to move up the npc when the actual price comes too close why would there be an NPC in the first place? We already had lots of these discussions, I don't think any changes will happen on the NPC's

[Zbombe]

The NPC prices won't change. Sorry.

[Guest]

The NPC prices won't change. Sorry.

What are you sorry for? For having to deny a player's request? How about presenting the reason for not changing the NPC prices instead of commiserating? For example:

"The NPCs are there to cool down the raw materials markets. If the NPC prices were to be increased, they wouldn't cool down the markets as well.

"Without the NPCs the prices of raw materials could shoot up through the roof as the player base increases and not all produce their own steel, and that would slow down the development of new players. That in turn would slow down the game for the new players, and that might discourage some, and we don't want to lose the new players."

[Guest]

or they could just say "" as we have run this game for some time now WE KNOW BEST" which would be good enough reason

[Guest]

or they could just say "" as we have run this game for some time now WE KNOW BEST" which would be good enough reason

In the end the final argument in Kapilands is always: "It's our game, so it's our way or highway."

But since there is an arguably sensible reason for the existence of NPCs, the designers should be able to justify the selected NPC prices with a reasoned argument, as well. Otherwise the arbitrariness of NPCs, and the designers, is revealed.

Why 0.27 c for power and water, 27 c for stones, 75 c for wood and 135 c for steel? For power and water the current market price is 22% to 30% of the NPC price, for stones 37% to 48%, for wood 27% and for steel 99% to 100% and beyond. To me this indicates that the NPC prices were chosen at random, and right now the steel NPC is definitely distorting the natural development of the steel market: the price cannot increase above 135 c, since only the altruists pay more for their steel than they could, and altruism and, well, 135 caps will get you a kilo of steel...

In my opinion the NPCs are quite unnecessary, since any player can restart his game at any time. So if steel were to cost 300 caps, it would be an easy choice to start out by constructing a factory and a mine or two. Or if power and water were 0.60 c/kWh or something, it would be a no-brainer to start as a power company.

But it's no skin off my nose. The simplified economy of Kapilands is still a fine place to observe effects of market interventions (contests and NPCs) instead of a free market.

[Tycoon]

or they could just say "" as we have run this game for some time now WE KNOW BEST" which would be good enough reason

In the end the final argument in Kapilands is always: "It's our game, so it's our way or highway."

I cannot remember nor imagine that I or any other mod used this sentence for one of any of your suggestions... if I am wrong: sorry... I would immediately have reacted on such an expression... but I am right, I would like to ask you not to give such sentences to the users...

But I do remember that I wrote somewhere some time ago referring to the NPC-matter, that the creator of the game does not want to change the NPC:
this company had been implemented for new players to have the possibility to buy steel... So that they do not hang behind other players...

If the NPC would be deleted, the price would shoot into fantastic heights so that it would become very, very hard for newcomers to expand or build new buildings after having used their beginners material. They would just slow down. And one experience of the former versions was: whenever a game / realm ran for more than a year, newbies soon complainted that they could not grow so fast; that qualities were too hight to sell products in their own shops (that*s why there are e.g. water, stone,... which go into the calculation of quality...) that buildings of the "old" players are just too big so that they cannot come up with their production etc etc...

Even if they would change the price and increase npc steel by 5,00 caps, or 10 or 20... we soon would have another thread: increase the price for steel....

The creator of the game won't change his opinion in this regard; but not, because this is his game, but because he wanted to have some opportunities for new players....

[Guest]

And there is exactly the reasoned argument that I was looking for. Thanks, Tycoon!

I cannot remember nor imagine that I or any other mod used this sentence for one of any of your suggestions... if I am wrong: sorry... I would immediately have reacted on such an expression... but I am right, I would like to ask you not to give such sentences to the users...

If you suspect somebody of cheating, you delete their account, don't you? That's exactly "my way or highway," and it's the final argument since it removes the cheater from your event horizon.

You say that cheating (transferring money/start-up resources from a freshly-started account to another and then restarting the account to get a new batch of start-up resources) is not fair towards other users. My point of view is that the cheaters are not playing the same game: they get their enjoyment from playing a meta-game that speeds up their development in the actual game. Yeah, that cheapens the achievements of the players who play the game according to the rules posted by the owners of the game, if the rule-abiding players give a hoot for the cheaters' achievements. I don't care for their achievements, because they're worthless in my eyes, since they have been achieved by circumventing the proper game mechanics.

In the current situation all of the players are dependent on the maintainers of the game to take care of cheaters. This is a great analog of the situation in the real life: when you have a problem, you can solve it either through legislation (the "gun method") or through social pressure (the "stick and carrot method"). Here is an example of how the cheater problem could be solved by using the stick and carrot:

If somebody (maintainers, Knolls, me, anybody with a smidgen of time and savvy with spreadsheets) were to publish a chart with average company value over time (the expansion rate), each player could check for themselves which companies (players) are probable cheaters and start boycotting them (Kapilands sure loses its taste if nobody trades with you, and if you don't trade with anybody, your only effect on other players is the indirect one through the sales to NPCs). Since company names cannot be published on the forum (or faxes), nobody could orchestrate a mud-slinging campaign to get a legitimate company shunned, either.

[Tycoon]

Sorry, I do not see any connection of your cheater- arguments with the npc discussion... nor any connection to the "in the end Kapiland always says it is my game..." in a thread which deals with a suggestion regarding the npc price....

And furthermore I do not agree with you referring this cheater issue:
So if 3 users publish a chart showing how a company grows, this is better than administrators who delete resp. lock the accounts of obvious cheaters??

I think this issue does not belong into this thread... but I am also convinced, that 90% of the users do not agree with your idea: not to lock cheaters, but to let them e.g. win a contest with 50 multi accounts ... and nobody does anything against them... They do not mind if you are not trading with them, they have their own "groups" to trade with....

I think 90% of the users are more interested in getting rid of them asap and not to read a chart and (maybe) take the wrong conclusions out of this chart...

[Guest]

some players have a problem to think global enough

if there is no NPC, new players, who need some steel for expand, have no chance against the big players.

this discussion is not helpful. there is an easy way - ignore this.

by the way, if you - widgetry, dont enjoy this game - why you play it?


if some poor guys are too stupid, to play without cheating, they better play with legotoys.
All cheaters should be deleted - so its an easy way. but i know, kiddys need their fun.

[Guest]

The NPC account is to close to the actual price of what steel is going for. There is only a 5 cap difference of what steel usually sells for. I think if you moved it up to, example 140, it would be a lot better.

Make something besides q0 steel and you can sell it for a higher price. Or, sell it directly to another company and not bother with the 10% market charge. NPC price is fine. Raising it would be pointless since it's not like everybody will agree to sell it for less.

Could message all the wiseguys undercutting eachother in a market that's going to sell no matter what, to get a nice hold at 134.99. Actually saw steel going in the 120c range awhile ago. Ridiculous.

[Guest]

Ehm, if the ONLY argument for having steel at that low price is to support new players, than the NPC can sell at different prices for different levels. It would not be fair, but the level system is not fair now (and we know why - new players).

But thinking of that, it could destroy car-industry, wich is even now for those, who just want to produce cars, not to make huge money.

[Guest]

If somebody (maintainers, Knolls, me, anybody with a smidgen of time and savvy with spreadsheets) were to publish a chart with average company value over time (the expansion rate), each player could check for themselves which companies (players) are probable cheaters and start boycotting them

Hehe, just look for the vertical line. The cheaters are the ones going from 500,000 to 4mil in an hour.

However there are other reasons why moves can happen. I personally made a huge jump just at the start of once contest because I had a warehouse full of the contest product. That stuff can happen frequently (to say nothing of coin purchases) so when I've suspected someone I always report to the mods as "please investigate, this looks funny." We need someone who can see behind the scenes to know for sure. If all we had were players guessing and boycotting that's kind of a mob justice.

I see what you're saying, that enjoyment is a psychological thing. Instead of needing to be the biggest, players can play for being the biggest candymaker, or the fastest-growing Small Businessman, or just to feel like they're expanding regardless of other players. With that mindset you just append to "largest non-cheating candymaker" and the like.

However, I've found that's a triumph of logic over emotions that most people just can't handle. It's one thing to say "well people started before me so it's ok that they're ahead." But something else to see people jumping by because they're not obeying the rules. And it would nag in everyone's head that they're spending time looking carefully to save a few caps on the market when they could just as easily load up on cheated steel.

Also a public boycott is a lot of effort, we'd have to pass around blacklists all the time (again approaching mob justice). Considering you can still progress in solo mode, and you can't keep people from buying off the market, I don't think that's a viable solution.

[Guest]

or they could just say "" as we have run this game for some time now WE KNOW BEST" which would be good enough reason

In the end the final argument in Kapilands is always: "It's our game, so it's our way or highway."

Sorry, I do not see any connection of your cheater- arguments with the npc discussion... nor any connection to the "in the end Kapiland always says it is my game..." in a thread which deals with a suggestion regarding the npc price...

Of course it was a tangent to start with, but the cheater issue was simply an example of where the "my way or highway" argument is actually used.

Do you want to limit the discussion in each thread strictly to the subject of the thread? Is that what you want?

And furthermore I do not agree with you referring this cheater issue:
So if 3 users publish a chart showing how a company grows, this is better than administrators who delete resp. lock the accounts of obvious cheaters??

Let's see. Which causes more harm to the game: multi-accounters or the atmosphere of distrust created by the constant stream of messages of "do not cheat or we kick you out" from the maintainers?

I think 90% of the users are more interested in getting rid of them asap and not to read a chart and (maybe) take the wrong conclusions out of this chart...

Absolutely. I'm certain that 99% of the legitimate players could care less for this whole issue as long as they get to explore their production chain of choice in peace. The point I was trying to make is that the lock-out is not the only possible solution, merely the most convenient one. Which does not make it the best one.

The cheaters open whole new interesting development avenues for this game if you merely approach the issue with a bit of ingenuity. For example:

Publish the names of the cheating companies and enable anti-advertising, a new use for advertisements: negative points against published cheaters, and anyone who has antipathy towards cheaters could post these advertisements. At 40,000 negative points their stores would sell at 50% efficiency, at 80,000 negative points at 25 % efficiency and so forth.

The cheater's market ads could have a red flag saying "cheater" so that legitimate players could easily avoid buying from them.

The developers could create a method to pay a fine to the system to get rid of the cheater status...

[Guest]

if there is no NPC, new players, who need some steel for expand, have no chance against the big players.

What do you mean by "chance against the big players"? Anybody who wants to catch the big players will start to suffer the same penalties as the big players long before the catch-up can happen. Catching up requires superior entrepreneurship and research from the players instead of built-in equalizers from the game system, and that is just as it should be: a game of skill instead of chance.

by the way, if you - widgetry, dont enjoy this game - why you play it?

Why not? In spite of its shortcomings, Kapilands is still quite unique, and I enjoy the Kapilands community.