This way, players who claim to be daily suppliers will tend to keep their promises more often because of the penalty. More trust and reliable business partners -> better production and more profit
futures
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futures
Introducing future contracts would be very cool, call and put options, players can write them and trade freely, a financial penalty that triggers automaticaly if the goods are not delivered in time. Maybe also the opportunity to trade them on the market.
This way, players who claim to be daily suppliers will tend to keep their promises more often because of the penalty. More trust and reliable business partners -> better production and more profit
This way, players who claim to be daily suppliers will tend to keep their promises more often because of the penalty. More trust and reliable business partners -> better production and more profit
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If somebody doesn't know, a futures contract is simply a contract where you sell, say, the production of your power plant for the next 24 hours. Your benefit is that you get the money now and deliver after 24 hours, even using part of the payment to pay for the production. The buyer's benefit is that he gets the product at a specific price.
It is a common method of funding and evening out price changes in RL. It would be a bear to develop a version of it for Kapilands that would suit the developers' sensibilities, though.
Let's see... power plants are easy, since they do not require any inputs other than money. Here is an outline for one possible implementation. If you were to accept a power future (for example, production for 24 hours at 0.05 c/kWh), the contract would simply lock the power plant to produce power for the 24 hours and deliver the power automatically to the holder of the contract on the delivery date and time. For other products the prerequisite for accepting such a contract would be that you have the necessary inputs in your warehouse so that the contract can lock the appropriate production building.
As for the contract itself, the holder should be able to sell it to anyone until it matures, at which point he'd be reduced to selling the actual product, instead. It should also be quite cheap to change the holder of a future, or otherwise there would be no point to a futures market. Without buying and selling of the contracts there would be no futures market, only individual futures contracts.
Does that sound like a reasonable adaptation?
It is a common method of funding and evening out price changes in RL. It would be a bear to develop a version of it for Kapilands that would suit the developers' sensibilities, though.
Let's see... power plants are easy, since they do not require any inputs other than money. Here is an outline for one possible implementation. If you were to accept a power future (for example, production for 24 hours at 0.05 c/kWh), the contract would simply lock the power plant to produce power for the 24 hours and deliver the power automatically to the holder of the contract on the delivery date and time. For other products the prerequisite for accepting such a contract would be that you have the necessary inputs in your warehouse so that the contract can lock the appropriate production building.
As for the contract itself, the holder should be able to sell it to anyone until it matures, at which point he'd be reduced to selling the actual product, instead. It should also be quite cheap to change the holder of a future, or otherwise there would be no point to a futures market. Without buying and selling of the contracts there would be no futures market, only individual futures contracts.
Does that sound like a reasonable adaptation?
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It sounds like the premise of something. Allow me to play devil's advocate it a little bit:
How much use do you think it would see? In the real world a the underlying products takes months to develop while the derivative can be created and accepted in minutes. In Kapilands we're talking about what, a day's worth of production? 3-4 days tops? And you have to allow a few hours for the other person to accept the future contract anyway, standard game delay for any contract.
Also real life forces the duration on these goods to be long. In Kap, I can just as easily make corn come every 12 hours as every 4 days. There's no need for a futures contract that way.
Then consider how sparse some markets are anyway. Subtract out players who just won't understand the concept. Subtract out more who kind of get it but won't be willing to sell at the appropriate discount (for transfer of risk).
Meanwhile the seller could just set shifts of 12 hours, selling the real product. No discounting required, no locking yourself out of the resource. No worries to the seller about what they miss, and no infrastructure needed in the game.
I think trading derivatives would be cool too. But if you're anything like me, you're probably picturing yourself as a buyer who wants to do it for the fun of it. I think the problem would be lack of sellers, as they have little need for this.
How much use do you think it would see? In the real world a the underlying products takes months to develop while the derivative can be created and accepted in minutes. In Kapilands we're talking about what, a day's worth of production? 3-4 days tops? And you have to allow a few hours for the other person to accept the future contract anyway, standard game delay for any contract.
Also real life forces the duration on these goods to be long. In Kap, I can just as easily make corn come every 12 hours as every 4 days. There's no need for a futures contract that way.
Then consider how sparse some markets are anyway. Subtract out players who just won't understand the concept. Subtract out more who kind of get it but won't be willing to sell at the appropriate discount (for transfer of risk).
Meanwhile the seller could just set shifts of 12 hours, selling the real product. No discounting required, no locking yourself out of the resource. No worries to the seller about what they miss, and no infrastructure needed in the game.
I think trading derivatives would be cool too. But if you're anything like me, you're probably picturing yourself as a buyer who wants to do it for the fun of it. I think the problem would be lack of sellers, as they have little need for this.
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Imagine that you are a noob and build 4 power plant producing something like 800.000 power per day, you could sell a contract for your production of the next 3 days and with the money NOW build another power plant which raise your production now.Knolls wrote:I think trading derivatives would be cool too. But if you're anything like me, you're probably picturing yourself as a buyer who wants to do it for the fun of it. I think the problem would be lack of sellers, as they have little need for this.
it's a big deal for the sealer too.
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Because the first thing a noob would want to do is locate a buyer and craft a futures contract? 
I'll grant it is most beneficial to the new player. He has a rush of building and no present income. He/she also doesn't have much to do when they check in because they have little building to do, and few supply lines to manage. However that new player is also the least likely to understand this feature - they don't even fully know the basics of simple contracts yet.
Furthermore, assuming the building will be productive from there out, all you've done is turn a a Perpetuity into a Perpetuity Due. This would accelerate the first payment by X days. But even if you kept up with the futures selling every time, you're still only getting a payment every X days. And don't forget, it should be a slightly discounted price off the current market (otherwise why isn't the buyer just buying someone else's stuff outright?)
So the seller is using a more complicated method and taking a smaller payments into the foreseeable future in return for a small jump start in time. After which they still have to log out for X days anyway.
I'll grant it is most beneficial to the new player. He has a rush of building and no present income. He/she also doesn't have much to do when they check in because they have little building to do, and few supply lines to manage. However that new player is also the least likely to understand this feature - they don't even fully know the basics of simple contracts yet.
Furthermore, assuming the building will be productive from there out, all you've done is turn a a Perpetuity into a Perpetuity Due. This would accelerate the first payment by X days. But even if you kept up with the futures selling every time, you're still only getting a payment every X days. And don't forget, it should be a slightly discounted price off the current market (otherwise why isn't the buyer just buying someone else's stuff outright?)
So the seller is using a more complicated method and taking a smaller payments into the foreseeable future in return for a small jump start in time. After which they still have to log out for X days anyway.
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Yeah that too.Widgetry wrote:Knolls is right: it's an advanced concept, and the developers would probably limit it to Managers or something, so it wouldn't be any use to newbies.
It's a fun idea though. I'm trying to think how a game might be designed around using them. I sense we are a little weird in that we both find math fun, and these aren't called "derivates" for nothing.
(Goes off to brainstorm.)
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before we go on to that complex derivatives, i believe that there should be a reasonable stock exchange market..
for me it would be great to open my company to public.. thus i will be able to gather some money for new investments. and those who invested in my company will earn profit out of each share.. then we will become like real CEOs trying to push the stock prices up..
aaaanndd.. there should be company acquisitions. i would love to sell my company to someone else with all facilities and inventory..
for me it would be great to open my company to public.. thus i will be able to gather some money for new investments. and those who invested in my company will earn profit out of each share.. then we will become like real CEOs trying to push the stock prices up..
aaaanndd.. there should be company acquisitions. i would love to sell my company to someone else with all facilities and inventory..
this is something which definitely won*t come in none of the versions... first of all it would be a kind of invitation for cheaters and second: it would be possible to take a company over...Bilge wrote:before we go on to that complex derivatives, i believe that there should be a reasonable stock exchange market..
for me it would be great to open my company to public.. thus i will be able to gather some money for new investments. and those who invested in my company will earn profit out of each share.. then we will become like real CEOs trying to push the stock prices up..
aaaanndd.. there should be company acquisitions. i would love to sell my company to someone else with all facilities and inventory..
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If you wish to pay dividents to shareholders from the profit first you have to calculate the profit reliably. For this you need an accountancy and in kapilands we have... no accountancy and no profit calculation not mention that we have no way of valuating the whole company (only fixed assets, but it is only a part of a company)Bilge wrote:before we go on to that complex derivatives, i believe that there should be a reasonable stock exchange market..
for me it would be great to open my company to public.. thus i will be able to gather some money for new investments. and those who invested in my company will earn profit out of each share.. then we will become like real CEOs trying to push the stock prices up..
aaaanndd.. there should be company acquisitions. i would love to sell my company to someone else with all facilities and inventory..
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