Coin Pricing Union

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Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 19:52

Jongil_Corp wrote:
I've had several offers today, so coins can't be in that much of an abundance.
Someone bought coins at 500mill?

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felixbluindustries
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Post by felixbluindustries » 11.10.2011, 19:31

Jongil_Corp wrote:
felixbluindustries wrote:
That's your proposal effectivley for coin prices. I'm aware it would be an exponential growth from the beginning and then slowing down and ofc there are variants- but just LOOK at that spike at the end- it logically makes NO sense. The 40 building arguement is not "fallicied" it has been a well known and documented fact for the 3 and a half years realm 2 has existed (Because some smart cookies already worked it out on realm 1).

I do not understand WHY you are bringing quality into the argument to do with 40 buildings- 40 fully expanded powerplants can make X amount of power- and that's that. 40 fully expanded factories can make Y amount of gas- the quality of these don't matter, they make a maximum amount.

Sure the quality will effect price, but that has nothing to do with the coin price! You are failing to consider the cash input needed to run buildings, the time and cost of expansion of these buildings and the fact that your proposal makes the kapi coin-price graph look like the one I just posted!

NOTHING on the server can "inflate" at anything close to that rate unless it's involved in a competition!!! Even then it's very brief and the industry suffers for several months afterwards as several of my friends have found out!
You seem to have pulled that graph out of your rear-end with all due respect, no offense intended; it hasn't been linear at all until now, it will probably remain non-linear until a coin union body responsible for its regulation exists, and you've picked a total of one whole argument of mine that looks fallacious at base value. However, it seems as though you haven't read anything I've written. Which makes me wonder if you're just panicking since it is out of line with your interests.

Look at your text in bold (emphasis my own.) That's called an appeal to tradition. It's classed as a logical fallacy. (Also on second observation it's an appeal to authority too; and you don't even seem to source the guys who have apparently 'figured this out.') Not to mention the logic I had exposed it for being the sham it is, a few posts back.

It wasn't me who brought quality into the argument; you did by proposing those making NPC, quality-capped goods would suffer somehow, in some sort of cyclic reasoning which easily contradicted itself. I only argued against this case; all it would do, in effect, is create more money for the largest companies to buy those types of goods, which would be largely limited in price anyway, to how high the NPC dictates it's worth.

I've mentioned a number of measures we would have implemented to increase fairness in the coins market in any case, including level-based pricing; again, you conveniently missed that.
I am sorry but plus do not quote AS level critical thinking terms at me in jest- and don't treat me as a [censored].

Likewise please READ my posts before responding as you will notice I started:

I'm aware it would be an exponential growth from the beginning and then slowing down and ofc there are variants- but just LOOK at that spike at the end

In other words I understand that the growth is not linear- but I merely needed these values to make the graph seem complete. There's no point drawing a vertical line on a graph showing a 300mil to 550mil movement over the time period unit of "1". So please can you attempt to understand my posts before "firing at them" because my point I was attempting to make with the graph still stands that there is a huge spike at the end, a 83% increase over a time period of a month, the coin market has increased steadily for over 3 years and 10months now, 46months... in those 46 months we have gone from 120,000 caps to 300million caps.... your proposal is that in 1/46th of that time we add 250million caps- 83% increase, which would not work.

My comment on "stones and power" in my original post was in reference to those players who produce those items merely losing out the quickest in comparison to those who CAN have the option of quality on their side, but ofc Q takes time and money, so again while they may be able to hold out holding onto the 40buildings for longer they will still lose out.

The "people who worked it out" if you want their names includes Knolls, regarded as one of the best Kapilands players ever and a real life economist I believe. It's quite simple maths. 20coins gives you 1 month of premium and premium gives you 40 extra buildings- but no other monetary addition.
Therefore the price of 20 coins needs to be less than that of however much 40 extra buildings earn within 1 month.

So if the price of coins is 300mil as it is now and each of your buildings makes 200million caps, that means you pay 6billion caps per month for premium, but from that premium make 8billion caps- henceforth a profit of 2billion.

If on the other hand you pay 550mil per coin and your buildings make 250million caps each, you pay 11bil per month for premium and earn 10billion from the 40 extra buildings. Meaning you're making a loss of 1billion caps per month, which is not sustainable!


I have no interest in the changing coin markets- I have enough coins stacked up to last me several months and I set my buildings to produce or expand for 6months at a time and quit for 6months before returning, buying 1 month of premium sorting them out and setting them for another 6months, Meaning theoretically I have enough coins to last me for 5years- I won't need to buy any for a while- I am merely here to show my feelings, opinion and objections to a plan to raise the coin price by such huge amounts in a single month(Or even fortnight you wanted!).
I've been playing Realm 2 since 3days after it first started and I was playing Realm 1 before that and I know what ruined realm 1 and that was huge inflation of certain item prices in short periods of time and I don't want that to happen to Realm 2 as well!



Oh and the reason I decided to miss you level based pricing system is because that won't work.
Players of lower levels won't be able to afford it initially till they get to a certain point, when they do they'll see profit margins in coins and merely buy them to resell them in most cases. Likewise if this union falls apart then the lower level players will suddenly be paying full whack for coins because not many players are here to be "nice" sure some are, but the majority of casual players will buy 20coins and aim to sell them to whoever they want at the maximum price.

What are your other fairness measures? What about those like stated in my example who have buildings making 250million caps each- they're making a profit atm at 300mil, but a lose at 550mil per coin.
If the price increased over time they may start switching sector gradually or start selling their 40 extra buildings over time as they realize they're starting to lose money. Your proposal though means they'll start losing immediatley- and I'm not talking about "small players" I'm talking about players in "bad industries" that perhaps aren't best for profit, but instead just interest the player, but they gain some level of profit out of it.
Image
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Quote for probably the next 10years: If they can make penicillin out of mouldy bread I'm sure as hell I can make something out of you. -Ali

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Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 01:23

First of all ... I just look at this coments for more than 3 days and I just can't stay without saying nothing .... Image

I don't see the reason of this argues to continue and I'm agree with this union but:

... for Jongil_Corp & JOTTechinformations:

* we play from a long while and we have some experience in this game (some players more experience and some less >>> like me) .... but this isn't in consideration....

* you've spoken only with good players (maybe the best of this game), sellers & buyers of coins (90% of them) and you try to argue with some good experiencied sellers Image, more than usual buyers .... so your argue is with an opinion of one seller more than an buyer (if you understand me).... and I would love to give an example "Lord of coins" (from my beginnig & my opinion) ... beeing ImageCeltne who sold/bought coins at the same price for more than 6 months (without commission) in R2!!!

* At my turn I've sold coins (at my start) and bought some after that but isn't a rule that I can't buy for my premium account and isn't so important for me this coins ... as well there are players who can't afford them .... you can see lot's of discussions about that on forum.... but this will not make the price of coins to rise....

* As you was informed by some other players in other messages lot's of big players have enough coins for few more months (even me) and isn't so much request of them so the price is normal to drop if there are few more sellers and only 1-2 buyers of them... so even if you try to make an Union of that you'll not find enough "coin sellers" who will sell at the same price like you... if is in rush for something to buy with caps .... believe me that I-ve tried different times for different products and doesn't work at all .... the only way is to have enough caps/coins to sell and buy at the same time / same price like Celtne done it!... maybe will work but this means a lot of coins/caps.

* Now .... it's good to have an personal opinion and is good to try to change things but must understand and think at other efforts wich tried to explain that will not work in this way ... not on Kapilands... they didn-t tried to cut your wings ... just few explanations for you to understand better some things wich lots of us know by experience.... but give a shoot and try Image, maybe we're all wrong ....

* In the end all unbelievable things can be possible in this game like in the real world but try to listen to experienced players Image and don't think that is a big difference beetwin you and a bigger players, you can always catch them and be better than them.... How???Image Selling coins ??? ... I'm not sure about that ... Why ??? I know enough guys who just sold coins, arrived with big buildings and quit because they loosed all fun and the goals of this game!!! ... I'm at my fixed assets bigger than others who spend double time than me on this game, without using coins for my growth (I've used for premium, contests ... other things) ..... I know bigger players than me who started later and are bigger than me, some of them using coins and other without using them.... anyone at his point of playing ... but this is out of our discoussion .... is just want to let you know that are lot-s of things in this game that you must see and learn Imagefirst to try to make an difference on coins or any other product!

Guest

Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 17:16

Thanks for the nice words Flaria!

Historical data of coins price based on real deals

Image

In general this is simple, if you want to increase price then buy coins,
if you want decrease then sell.

Guest

Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 17:36

Judging on that graph, trying to get it to 500-550 would just be... rude. :shock:
Seriously guys, I'd urge you to stay around the 300mil mark, it's just better that way.
A lot of people play on Realm2 because everything is still affordable, while Realm1 has gone insane.
Don't let Realm2 get out of hand by raising it to almost double of what it is now..

Guest

Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 18:42

VerConMat Industries BV wrote:Judging on that graph, trying to get it to 500-550 would just be... rude. :shock:
Seriously guys, I'd urge you to stay around the 300mil mark, it's just better that way.
A lot of people play on Realm2 because everything is still affordable, while Realm1 has gone insane.
Don't let Realm2 get out of hand by raising it to almost double of what it is now..
The graph proves though that the felix guy was talking utter bull when he said spikes harm the game economy. Clearly it's survived.
Last edited by Guest on 12.10.2011, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 19:02

It's not a "spike" towards 300mil though, some dates are missing in 2011.
Even though the price did go up in 2011, it's not as much of a 'spike' at the graph seems to show.
The growth wasn't done in like a month, but took several months.

The fastest recorded growth was between January of 2011 (190mil) and April of 2011(292mil), then it stuck around/just below the 300 mark for a while.
That's an increase of 100mil in 3 months time.


You're suggesting an increase of 200/250mil in 2 weeks to a month, that's way too much.
If you want to stop the price from going up and down all the time, stop it close to where it's at..


---
I removed your double posts for you, by the way.

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Post by felixbluindustries » 12.10.2011, 20:42

Jongil_Corp wrote:
VerConMat Industries BV wrote:Judging on that graph, trying to get it to 500-550 would just be... rude. :shock:
Seriously guys, I'd urge you to stay around the 300mil mark, it's just better that way.
A lot of people play on Realm2 because everything is still affordable, while Realm1 has gone insane.
Don't let Realm2 get out of hand by raising it to almost double of what it is now..
The graph proves though that the felix guy was talking utter bull when he said spikes harm the game economy. Clearly it's survived.
Again please learn to read graphs...
Image
ImageRules
Quote for probably the next 10years: If they can make penicillin out of mouldy bread I'm sure as hell I can make something out of you. -Ali

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Post by Guest » 12.10.2011, 20:48

felixbluindustries wrote:
Jongil_Corp wrote:
VerConMat Industries BV wrote:Judging on that graph, trying to get it to 500-550 would just be... rude. :shock:
Seriously guys, I'd urge you to stay around the 300mil mark, it's just better that way.
A lot of people play on Realm2 because everything is still affordable, while Realm1 has gone insane.
Don't let Realm2 get out of hand by raising it to almost double of what it is now..
The graph proves though that the felix guy was talking utter bull when he said spikes harm the game economy. Clearly it's survived.
Again please learn to read graphs...
Even if that were over three months, that's an increase of 33M a month, which is considerably faster than in the history of the game.

So the problem is with the graphs themselves; yours was overly simplistic and that last one had a guy who couldn't properly plot an X axis.

If you don't want me to condescend you, you're going the wrong way about it.

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Post by felixbluindustries » 12.10.2011, 21:09

I'm fine with a 33mil increase per month- that's a VERY fast increase. But it's acceptable- 250mil a month though is just far too much.

I can't be arsed to argue anymore, seeing as I don't buy coins to sell for profit and stones will always sell eventually. I would just prefer a high level of competition.

Can I ask a question though- how long have you been playing Kapilands? R1 or R2- whichever you've been playing the longest.

EDIT: Oh and in any case just because I didn't have the full data and he didn't have complete data doesn't make the graphs incorrect...
Image
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Quote for probably the next 10years: If they can make penicillin out of mouldy bread I'm sure as hell I can make something out of you. -Ali

Guest

Post by Guest » 13.10.2011, 16:51

About graph, I pointed only days/deals 50 coins and more, I omited small deals like 5 coins and so. When you see 2 similar values ex. 12.04.2010 and 25.04.2010 thats mean I pointed only start and end period when I buy/sell at that price, all deals between was similar. Is graph showing all my deals? No, because sometimes I forget write down data, ex. I remember in august I bought 100 coins from Khalid for 280?? millions, but this is not in graph because I not found it in my file. Of course graph not show all market situation, but only my real deals. This is up to you how to interpret this and you can easy redraw graph with correct X axis Image

Now about price rise. It is easy to do, just start to buy coins off market, after a while prices will rise. If you want to hold prices high you need to buy coins constantly. Because there no limit on coins unlike the products. You can monopolize any branch in game but cant monopolize coins because there are already monopol Upjers Image

Guest

A very bad idea

Post by Guest » 17.10.2011, 17:25

Let the free market work itself out, what you suggest would cause a lot of smaller companies to suffer. I myself dont need coins for a very long time as I invested in them way way way back when prices were much lower. if you attempt to increase coins to 500 million each I will make sure all of the TIB companies have a much easier and more affordable way of buying coins. We should be focusing on ways to keep and expand the player base not drive them away with what many new companies will never be able to afford for a very long time.


Felix is correct, if you increase the cost of coins by that much it will greatly effect the market. I myself out of spite would sell my coins to those who needed them and even go so far as to donate a small sum weekly to make sure the prices will never stabalize at that level. (500-550m each)

Guest

Post by Guest » 19.10.2011, 04:02

Look guys I am sorry if I came across as hostile but I dont like the idea. But go ahead and try to do it if that is how you want to enjoy the game. Myself I dont want to be the biggest, richest company to walk in realm 2. I like to meet other players and work on supply chains to the benefit of everyone. I LIKE people who are not like me, who make what they want that is not the most profitable. If a product is made that can go into a status building I will buy it. I want all the kaps, I make to make thier way back into the economy, back down to the smallest and those in niche industries. I like that we have variety in realm 2, I dont want that to change.

Guest

Post by Guest » 20.10.2011, 04:16

I say lets all sell coins 1 billion each one :)

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