Coin Pricing Union

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Coin Pricing Union

Post by Guest » 09.10.2011, 21:57

Noting that the prices have fluctuated up and down in Realm 2 over the past 2 months with no clear sight of progression, and that there could be a more stable system of coin price inflation, we could really do with a syndicate for coin prices.

Given the recent increases in price (on the fax board anyway) on Realm 2, I suggest we try and make the range of 500M-550M the effective trading price. Who's with me?

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Post by Guest » 09.10.2011, 22:02

Certainly I'm in, as a coin "producer", I'd rather the price was a fairly stable one, rather than a fluctuating one; fluctuation, as in the stock market, means that people can make quick money from coins, at the expense of the general market.

Anyone else willing to join? If we can set a price, we can all benefit. :D

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Post by felixbluindustries » 09.10.2011, 22:46

The price on Realm 2 is more than stable as far as I can tell, also what you're implying is an increase of 200-250million caps per coins- which is a near increase of 66%.

If you call a sudden increase in price of 66% stable then uhh good on you?
I think this is a horrible idea and would most likely ruin many companies on the server! Many of whom would give up.

Look at it like this: The price of 20coins needs to be greater than the amount earnt by 40 extra buildings in 1month. You increase the price of 20coins and then you increase the amount that those 40buildings needs to earn, and they only go up to a certain size, so the price of coins is ofc limited.

Ways to earn more money though without increasing your building size- hence not spening more money, is to sell your products for more. Now this increases inflation on the server in general as the bigger suppliers start needing to sell their products for more. Ofc some trades such as power and stones have a limited price and the quality cannot be increased- meaning that many players will start to lose out quickly!

So quite a few will quite, while others will start struggling by on less and less money in comparison to everyone else. Eventually only those left will be those with premium, but of course by a process of natural selection eg, some quitting, some making very bad business decisions, some getting banned etc. This player base will start to fall.

As the player base falls there are less buyers and less sellers, eventually this will get so small that it will take days before contracts are bought etc making more people want to quit all the way until we have only the few coin sellers left trying to shift their wares onto other coin sellers using the faxes and struggling.



I am having this issue on Realm 1 as I cannot find anyone willing to sell their oil for under 500 caps for Q0.

The issue is that the best price I can sell that level of gas for is 107- and including the price of power and the production cost I'm actually making a loss by making gas, and seeing as I require near on 4million oil a day to fully supply my factories it means I'd be making a loss of around 40million caps a day- hence why I'm currently sitting on 100 fully expanded factories which have nothing to do!

This is overall why I feel this union would be a bad idea!
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Quote for probably the next 10years: If they can make penicillin out of mouldy bread I'm sure as hell I can make something out of you. -Ali

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Post by Guest » 09.10.2011, 22:55

felixbluindustries wrote:The price on Realm 2 is more than stable as far as I can tell, also what you're implying is an increase of 200-250million caps per coins- which is a near increase of 66%.

If you call a sudden increase in price of 66% stable then uhh good on you?
I think this is a horrible idea and would most likely ruin many companies on the server! Many of whom would give up.

Look at it like this: The price of 20coins needs to be greater than the amount earnt by 40 extra buildings in 1month. You increase the price of 20coins and then you increase the amount that those 40buildings needs to earn, and they only go up to a certain size, so the price of coins is ofc limited.

Ways to earn more money though without increasing your building size- hence not spening more money, is to sell your products for more. Now this increases inflation on the server in general as the bigger suppliers start needing to sell their products for more. Ofc some trades such as power and stones have a limited price and the quality cannot be increased- meaning that many players will start to lose out quickly!

So quite a few will quite, while others will start struggling by on less and less money in comparison to everyone else. Eventually only those left will be those with premium, but of course by a process of natural selection eg, some quitting, some making very bad business decisions, some getting banned etc. This player base will start to fall.

As the player base falls there are less buyers and less sellers, eventually this will get so small that it will take days before contracts are bought etc making more people want to quit all the way until we have only the few coin sellers left trying to shift their wares onto other coin sellers using the faxes and struggling.



I am having this issue on Realm 1 as I cannot find anyone willing to sell their oil for under 500 caps for Q0.

The issue is that the best price I can sell that level of gas for is 107- and including the price of power and the production cost I'm actually making a loss by making gas, and seeing as I require near on 4million oil a day to fully supply my factories it means I'd be making a loss of around 40million caps a day- hence why I'm currently sitting on 100 fully expanded factories which have nothing to do!

This is overall why I feel this union would be a bad idea!
Concerns noted, however, while I've noticed a more-or-less constant increase in the prices of Realm 1 for Coins, I've noticed that on Realm 2, that coins have krept back down to about 200 million caps, after being 300 million caps just last month; before then it was increasing, but now we are seeing a reversion to the prices of last month's again.

This price increase wouldn't be immediate, but rather, phase in over a short period; also, unlike other products, coins, being completely unused in other types of transaction other than monetary (by that I mean they are not used as machine inputs, agricultural inputs, etc) are an intangible product, meaning they should easily get away with the price dynamics that other products may perhaps struggle doing so.

Many companies at the current rate of coins trading are already outwith the access of coins being extremely small comapnies; their operating costs are unlikely to be that high due tot he small range of goods that they'll be selling, and so the "40 buildings" argument is fallacied insofar as that's concerned. This, at most, could only apply to buildings whose products which have quality-dependent prices and even then, this assumes that coins are tangible products like everything else in the game, which they are not.

Also I would've planned to have short-time offers for players of certain levels, so as to allow easier access to the coins market (before the point, that is, of the player ultimately buying their own coins anyway.)

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Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 14:18

If I understood that correctly, you're saying that the R2 coin market has been fluctuating between 200 and 300 mil?
How is making them 500-550 mil a good idea then?

I'd say, have a go at trying to stabilize the price at 300-350 mil instead, that makes a lot more sense as it fits within the 'natural' flow of how things were going already.
I am not personally affected by this as I don't buy/sell coins from/to players,
but I do find this a bit of a weird increase, especially for a 'short period'.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 14:28

VerConMat Industries BV wrote:If I understood that correctly, you're saying that the R2 coin market has been fluctuating between 200 and 300 mil?
How is making them 500-550 mil a good idea then?

I'd say, have a go at trying to stabilize the price at 300-350 mil instead, that makes a lot more sense as it fits within the 'natural' flow of how things were going already.
I am not personally affected by this as I don't buy/sell coins from/to players,
but I do find this a bit of a weird increase, especially for a 'short period'.
This would've been a compromise that we were willing to make, but it is preferred that we can get the prices on a steady inflationary path.
For the record: the 'short period' I was personally referring to would've been approx. a fortnight to a month.

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Post by felixbluindustries » 10.10.2011, 16:04

Image

That's your proposal effectivley for coin prices. I'm aware it would be an exponential growth from the beginning and then slowing down and ofc there are variants- but just LOOK at that spike at the end- it logically makes NO sense. The 40 building arguement is not "fallicied" it has been a well known and documented fact for the 3 and a half years realm 2 has existed (Because some smart cookies already worked it out on realm 1).

I do not understand WHY you are bringing quality into the argument to do with 40 buildings- 40 fully expanded powerplants can make X amount of power- and that's that. 40 fully expanded factories can make Y amount of gas- the quality of these don't matter, they make a maximum amount.

Sure the quality will effect price, but that has nothing to do with the coin price! You are failing to consider the cash input needed to run buildings, the time and cost of expansion of these buildings and the fact that your proposal makes the kapi coin-price graph look like the one I just posted!

NOTHING on the server can "inflate" at anything close to that rate unless it's involved in a competition!!! Even then it's very brief and the industry suffers for several months afterwards as several of my friends have found out!
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Quote for probably the next 10years: If they can make penicillin out of mouldy bread I'm sure as hell I can make something out of you. -Ali

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Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 16:46

Hello, I was active in R2 coins business in 2010. I think semi stable coins price is good for realm economy so player can planing expenses/income. Example, new player can safely buy coins for real cash and sell coins ingame and don't worry about coin price fluctuations. Also big company who want gold medal in contest can sell coins ingame and spend income for contest products. From other side successful businessmens can safe invest kapis in coins.
What I see now is coin price waves 250-350 mill in very short time. In fact sometimes advertisers not accept contracts for advertised price and make bad name for this business. It causes discomfort for producers where planning is crucial. Less products produced, less products sold in stores, less kapis in our pockets. Both the big inflation and a deflation is bad for economy.
If we talking about syndicate, I disagree with goal - coins for 500 mill. If syndicate can help prevent coins market from rapid fluctuations I'm in. If we talking about unnatural market distortion, I will do what I can do to stop it.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 18:06

This wont work due to the recent satuation of the market by a certain company, most companies that needed to buy coins will have stocked up with at least 6 months to a years supply each when the prices dropped earlier this year, maybe before a trillion caps worth of coins hit the market but not amytime soon.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 18:17

price=supply/demand the price will go down if there are too many sellers (as it is now)

P S instead of sending faxed every 30 minutes and spending 5 coins for each, just put a fair price and players will buy.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 18:37

felixbluindustries wrote:Image

That's your proposal effectivley for coin prices. I'm aware it would be an exponential growth from the beginning and then slowing down and ofc there are variants- but just LOOK at that spike at the end- it logically makes NO sense. The 40 building arguement is not "fallicied" it has been a well known and documented fact for the 3 and a half years realm 2 has existed (Because some smart cookies already worked it out on realm 1).

I do not understand WHY you are bringing quality into the argument to do with 40 buildings- 40 fully expanded powerplants can make X amount of power- and that's that. 40 fully expanded factories can make Y amount of gas- the quality of these don't matter, they make a maximum amount.

Sure the quality will effect price, but that has nothing to do with the coin price! You are failing to consider the cash input needed to run buildings, the time and cost of expansion of these buildings and the fact that your proposal makes the kapi coin-price graph look like the one I just posted!

NOTHING on the server can "inflate" at anything close to that rate unless it's involved in a competition!!! Even then it's very brief and the industry suffers for several months afterwards as several of my friends have found out!
You seem to have pulled that graph out of your rear-end with all due respect, no offense intended; it hasn't been linear at all until now, it will probably remain non-linear until a coin union body responsible for its regulation exists, and you've picked a total of one whole argument of mine that looks fallacious at base value. However, it seems as though you haven't read anything I've written. Which makes me wonder if you're just panicking since it is out of line with your interests.

Look at your text in bold (emphasis my own.) That's called an appeal to tradition. It's classed as a logical fallacy. (Also on second observation it's an appeal to authority too; and you don't even seem to source the guys who have apparently 'figured this out.') Not to mention the logic I had exposed it for being the sham it is, a few posts back.

It wasn't me who brought quality into the argument; you did by proposing those making NPC, quality-capped goods would suffer somehow, in some sort of cyclic reasoning which easily contradicted itself. I only argued against this case; all it would do, in effect, is create more money for the largest companies to buy those types of goods, which would be largely limited in price anyway, to how high the NPC dictates it's worth.

I've mentioned a number of measures we would have implemented to increase fairness in the coins market in any case, including level-based pricing; again, you conveniently missed that.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 18:53

NYK wrote:This wont work due to the recent satuation of the market by a certain company, most companies that needed to buy coins will have stocked up with at least 6 months to a years supply each when the prices dropped earlier this year, maybe before a trillion caps worth of coins hit the market but not amytime soon.
We've been in talks with Khalid and he says he endorses this idea.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 19:05

Jongil_Corp wrote:
NYK wrote:This wont work due to the recent satuation of the market by a certain company, most companies that needed to buy coins will have stocked up with at least 6 months to a years supply each when the prices dropped earlier this year, maybe before a trillion caps worth of coins hit the market but not amytime soon.
We've been in talks with Khalid and he says he endorses this idea.
Did you read my post at all? Collusion won't help after the coins are already out there in other companies accounts.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 19:08

NYK wrote:
Jongil_Corp wrote:
NYK wrote:This wont work due to the recent satuation of the market by a certain company, most companies that needed to buy coins will have stocked up with at least 6 months to a years supply each when the prices dropped earlier this year, maybe before a trillion caps worth of coins hit the market but not amytime soon.
We've been in talks with Khalid and he says he endorses this idea.
Did you read my post at all? Collusion won't help after the coins are already out there in other companies accounts.
I've had several offers today, so coins can't be in that much of an abundance.

Guest

Post by Guest » 10.10.2011, 19:18

Offers are not the same actual sales. :)

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