.APCE
All who want to make kapilands an actually interesting place
Moderator: moderators
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Guest
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Guest
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Guest
If they move to a non-npc selling style realm, they're going to have to fix a lot more than just NPCs. Production capacities will need to be fixed. One example, is again steel. It takes 2 iron and 5 coal and .5 minerals (from the .5 chemicals used), which are all mining products. What do you know, iron, coal and minerals all have the same production capacity. If there's no NPCs selling steel, you'll run into an issue of the company specialized in mines deciding whether to make coal, iron or minerals. What's going to happen (this is isolated for steel) is that the miner is going to produce coal and coal only because there's 2.5x the demand for it relative to iron and 10x the demand relative to minerals.
Here's the problem, the miner is going to specialize in coal rather than iron or chemicals because they have the same production capacity, but what happens when the price of iron rises above coal? Miners immediately switch to iron because it's fetching a higher price for the same production capacity in the same mine. This will cause the price of iron to go down back to coal's level or below. However, since the demand for coal is higher, producers will immediately switch back to their specialization of coal. The same situation applies to minerals. What this means is no one is specializing in iron or minerals because the price levels need to be at 2.5xcoal for iron or 10xcoal for minerals for the miner to be indifferent to specializing in coal, iron or minerals. But would the prices ever get that high when the miner can switch production willy nilly with no costs? Not in a rational market (kapilands is probably not rational since there's no cost except time). What needs to be done is the supply levels of minerals and iron needs to be dropped below that of coal for a non-npc world to work, the only way to achieve this is to fix production capacities. This needs to start with raw materials because it's the basis of all products.
My point is that there's a lot more involved than simply removing NPCs and letting the free market handle prices. The free market would work in kapilands if producers could specialize properly with prices allowed for it. Production capacities of every raw material building would have to be reworked since my example was only isolated for steel.
We're also going to need a lot more people to join such a realm because there's so many options for production.
However, a good start to both realm 1 and realm 2 would simply be raising the price of power, water and stones sold by NPCs. What I would like to see is that for every X amount bought by players, the price increases by Y% (say 1%), this would allow players to put their power/water/stones on the market without having to compete with an NPC, but the NPC is still there should people be desperate. However, I would also like to see the price decrease by Y% if say 1/2X products weren't bought in a certain time frame. In reality, I'd like to see this done for only power because power producers don't have the option to switch to different products like drillers and miners do. This would, of course, raise prices across the board because everything takes power. It'd also squeeze profits in certain industries (wardrobes) that have high profit margins but also take a lot of power. This will allow for other industries that are less power intensive to compete with wardrobes and gas.
Another fix that wouldn't need another realm is the supply/demand feature with the stores. I mean who wants to live in a world where there's 4000 ice creams supplied but 1.6 billion demanded with those ice creams selling for $60 on average, which is probably 1/15th the profitability of a furniture store even though 0.00025% of the demand is met for ice cream while 10% is met for wardrobes? Come on, that's not realistic!
I think fixing the supply/demand feature has the greatest need, this would cause people to specialize all over the place and probably draw in a lot more players. Essentially, we need to demand it and Upjers will supply it, right?
Here's the problem, the miner is going to specialize in coal rather than iron or chemicals because they have the same production capacity, but what happens when the price of iron rises above coal? Miners immediately switch to iron because it's fetching a higher price for the same production capacity in the same mine. This will cause the price of iron to go down back to coal's level or below. However, since the demand for coal is higher, producers will immediately switch back to their specialization of coal. The same situation applies to minerals. What this means is no one is specializing in iron or minerals because the price levels need to be at 2.5xcoal for iron or 10xcoal for minerals for the miner to be indifferent to specializing in coal, iron or minerals. But would the prices ever get that high when the miner can switch production willy nilly with no costs? Not in a rational market (kapilands is probably not rational since there's no cost except time). What needs to be done is the supply levels of minerals and iron needs to be dropped below that of coal for a non-npc world to work, the only way to achieve this is to fix production capacities. This needs to start with raw materials because it's the basis of all products.
My point is that there's a lot more involved than simply removing NPCs and letting the free market handle prices. The free market would work in kapilands if producers could specialize properly with prices allowed for it. Production capacities of every raw material building would have to be reworked since my example was only isolated for steel.
We're also going to need a lot more people to join such a realm because there's so many options for production.
However, a good start to both realm 1 and realm 2 would simply be raising the price of power, water and stones sold by NPCs. What I would like to see is that for every X amount bought by players, the price increases by Y% (say 1%), this would allow players to put their power/water/stones on the market without having to compete with an NPC, but the NPC is still there should people be desperate. However, I would also like to see the price decrease by Y% if say 1/2X products weren't bought in a certain time frame. In reality, I'd like to see this done for only power because power producers don't have the option to switch to different products like drillers and miners do. This would, of course, raise prices across the board because everything takes power. It'd also squeeze profits in certain industries (wardrobes) that have high profit margins but also take a lot of power. This will allow for other industries that are less power intensive to compete with wardrobes and gas.
Another fix that wouldn't need another realm is the supply/demand feature with the stores. I mean who wants to live in a world where there's 4000 ice creams supplied but 1.6 billion demanded with those ice creams selling for $60 on average, which is probably 1/15th the profitability of a furniture store even though 0.00025% of the demand is met for ice cream while 10% is met for wardrobes? Come on, that's not realistic!
I think fixing the supply/demand feature has the greatest need, this would cause people to specialize all over the place and probably draw in a lot more players. Essentially, we need to demand it and Upjers will supply it, right?
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Guest
Only remove NPC products will not provide a true supply/demand free market (pure player economic). In fact, it will make new players more depending on big producers (old players) , and forced to accept ridiculous prices. If the new players feels their future is controlled by old players, they will quit.
So, to provide truly supply/demand free market:
Of course, moderator will need to do more job to against multis and cheaters, but the result will worth.
So, to provide truly supply/demand free market:
- No NPC products at all. Yes, 100% removed. You cant expect an pure players economic but allow NPC products in the circulation.
- No NPC workers. Yes, player hire player. The salary is decided by players, but the game system can set a minimum salary.
- Allow the market fluctuate as much as it can. If someone buy a 1000 cap$ steel because that is the only price in market, then the buyer should learn from mistake. But now in kapilands, it is that seller who to be blamed and banned, this discourage speculation and dynamic game play, make it just a pure cost calculation boring game.
- No NPC consumers. If the producers are players, why not the consumers too? All products produced should only be consumed by players in mission. Contest and mission in kapilands just work fine, but the reward is not interesting enough.
Of course, moderator will need to do more job to against multis and cheaters, but the result will worth.
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Guest
this is a very interesting thread....
I just took the time to read it all carefully and I also have to agree with many points made...
I also would like to see a free market economy in place... but like horizon said...it would collapse overnight on the already over inflated under specialized economy...
The only way I can see this happen or even have any change of working would be to start a new world with no market or NPC limits. In order to make it possible for the world to actually take off the new realm would have to give raw materials as a start... say 50 billion steel,water.stones,power... when these are sold the NPC disappear like any other player after all his goods was sold...
all the end products that you sell to the NPC like gas or wardrobes will eventually become more valuable as players work together to push up the NPC price like we have been doing with gas over the last year... the end user NPC works very well in kapilands...
in this way you will truly be able to see how the kapilands economy responds to supply and demand... and all market products will flatten out with only a small inflation as the end user NPC increases prices
I just took the time to read it all carefully and I also have to agree with many points made...
I also would like to see a free market economy in place... but like horizon said...it would collapse overnight on the already over inflated under specialized economy...
The only way I can see this happen or even have any change of working would be to start a new world with no market or NPC limits. In order to make it possible for the world to actually take off the new realm would have to give raw materials as a start... say 50 billion steel,water.stones,power... when these are sold the NPC disappear like any other player after all his goods was sold...
all the end products that you sell to the NPC like gas or wardrobes will eventually become more valuable as players work together to push up the NPC price like we have been doing with gas over the last year... the end user NPC works very well in kapilands...
in this way you will truly be able to see how the kapilands economy responds to supply and demand... and all market products will flatten out with only a small inflation as the end user NPC increases prices