The infinite Universe

[Guest]

I really wish people would stop saying that the universe is infinite.
it really isn't.

The big bang blew up and all the starts and galaxies flew out into this big ball.
Yes, sure it is big, very big, mind bogglingly large but it is not infinite.
There are X amount of galaxies and X amount of starts,
they could be counted and yes there would be an awful lot of them but any number that can be counted to, no matter how large is not infinite.

The universe is in fact finite, it can be defined,
Sure not by you or be or anybody who will likely read this message board to tell us exactly how many stars their actually is, but they could be counted, there are a set number of them.

Oh yea, sure, while you are counting them, cause it would take such a long time, some would die and others would be born but that's besides the fact.
At the present moment there IS a fixed number of galaxies and stars.
and the universe is a set distance across in diameter which could be measured by some means.

So please stop saying that the universe is infinite because it is NOT, it just isn't.

[Guest]

It is claimed to be infinite because it is constantly expanding according to scientists.
And the universe isnt only galaxies and stars, its the whole void everywhere around them too.

[Zbombe]

It is quite simple. As long as no end is found, it is infinite.

As reason of this, it is infinite for us.

[Guest]

Yeah,,, but the world is still flat. You won't talk me into believing any other story about spherical planets. People have been exiled and executed for merely stating that the world was round.

What if a small part of our universe was actually in another universe? Maybe many universes. Maybe even an infinite number of universes. Further, what if our universe was actually part of a bigger "structure"?

As long as our planet continues to be bombarded with gamma rays, the universe might still be expanding. It takes a few years for those gamma rays to reach our planet, but they are "created" or they started their journey from the edge of our universe.

Makes me think of that Black Sabbath song "Into The Void". What if we discovered (like in that "matrix" movie) there is no spoon. What would you eat your porridge with?

[Guest]

the universe is infinite due to the fact that we cant see the end

because all the blackness just does not end

[Guest]

The misconception here is that the universe is infinite. As previously stated the universe is expanding and therefore not infinite.
However, space is infinite, meaning that the universe has an infinite space to expand into.

So, space is infinite, the universe is finite.

I'm an secondary science teacher, and this is a concept that teenagers cannot understand at all!!!

[Guest]

i understood this concept and i already got a science exam day after already gone mad thanks to that and this science stuff in forum is getting me crazy there shud be a bann on this kinda stuff in forum

[Guest]

Anything which can get bigger isn't infinite and since the universe is expanding it is not infinite.

[Guest]

It is claimed to be infinite because it is constantly expanding according to scientists.
And the universe isnt only galaxies and stars, its the whole void everywhere around them too.

No, not too sure bout that.
There are four theories,
constantly expanding,
expanding and contracting,
reoccurring big bang.
big bang black hole

1) Constantly expanding:
As you have already stated.
But the problem with that is thermodynamics.
Entropy only increases, never decreases,
so eventually the entire universe will be one big giant dust cloud with millions of lightyears between each atom.
Every thing will become unwound with stars blowing up and such, till it is all one uniform gray haze.

2)expanding and contracting.
I guess the theory goes that once the gravitational force of all matter in the universe exceeds the force in which it was expelled during the big bang that the universe will snap back to the center again like a rubber band.

There are many variations on this idea.
A) that the big bang was a one shot deal and when it contracts again then it will be all over.
B) Not only will matter, thus space ergo time will also reverse, some say that is already happening, but how could you really tell?
Unless you remember the future.
C) that it will contract then explode again like spark plug firing.
D) That it will contract and then just smash into all the other matter coming into the center from the other side of the universe, which eventually will cause it to settle into one big chunk again.

3) Reoccurring big bangs:
That the universe is expanding but eventually all matter will get so far away from all other matter that it will pretty much be negligible and a new big bang will spark forcing out any left-over matter from the last universe.
But this would take a mind boggling long period of time to occur.

4) big bang black hole
That the entire universe is really in a black hole or something very much like it. That it can not infinitely expand, since it can not exceed it's own event horizon.

But regardless of which theory is correct, the universe is not infinite, it is not infinitely expanding, because by definition the universe is the sum total of matter and... I suppose the area in between, so once it increases, then it becomes finite again.

Maybe even an infinite number of universes. Further, what if our universe was actually part of a bigger "structure"?

Yes, well that's really two different subjects,
Multiple universes in another dimension and other universes in this one.
I seem to remember some British scientist saying that they found another Universe with their telescope, but can't really say for sure if that is accurate or not.
If light really does bend then they might just have been looking at the light from our own universe bending around back to us.

Multiple universes, yes, well it certainly does solve a lot of problems with Quantum theory but what a freakin mess, huh?

So, space is infinite, the universe is finite.

OK, that's sounds good enough for me.

Anything which can get bigger isn't infinite and since the universe is expanding it is not infinite.

good job.
infinity plus one is still infinity.

[Guest]

I think we have to have a finite definition of infinite .

The universe may be explained in terms of space-time? If either space or time is infinite then the universe can likewise be explained as being infinite. Further if both are infinite then does that explain the universe in terms of a higher order of infinity? ie. (infinity^x where x is a positive number) or (a*infinity + b*infinity where a & b can be anything).

You know you are in the universe if you can see it. I haven't met any able bodied person that has ever not seen some part of the universe at any particular time. It seems the universe is somewhat undefinable using current math.

I know there is a definition of the square root of -1. If you have ever studied complex numbers I feel sorry for you.

Back to space-time. For a finite answer we need a beginning and an end. I'm not sure the "big-bang" was the beginning and I hope that it's not the end either...

Buddha said that the universe is an illusion. He didn't mention anything about it being a finite/infinite illusion though .

we cant see the end

Can I get my money back? I hate missing the end of movies.

Some studies have hypothetically seen the edge of the universe. But that's just the edge, not the end...

[Guest]

Buddha said that the universe is an illusion. He didn't mention anything about it being a finite/infinite illusion though .

Yes, I think it is Brahma, the sleeping god, who every time he goes to sleep the universe is created as his dream, then when he awakes it is destroyed again. So I guess that could be an expanding and contracting universe theory.

the Greeks said that this is not the real world but just a reflection of it.

Physicists also seem to say that this is not the real universe but the product of a super universe.

They say that man is only consciously aware of about 2% of everything that is going on around him at any given time, so with such a small perspective it would be hard to draw an solid conclusions.

I've been developing my own model of the universe, called the invisible universe, based on these ideas. I've done little work on it lately but it has proven the existance of god or a god or rather a conscious intelligent organizing principle of the uinverse, otherwise everything would all be white noise and static, like when your TV is on a channel that doesn't have a station broadcasting to it. People call it snow or white noise, static that is how the universe should be, nothing but static.

Basically that they have broken down the atom so far that they have discovered that the basis of all matter is just energy.
That this energy is not local but comes from somewhere else, since it could never sustain itself alone in our dimension and would just scatter.
But if it is a natural occurring process then there would be no reason for any sub-quark to intersect our universe in any sort of order, much less chronological order, nor any reason for them to do it at all, unless something forced them here and plotted their order.
Which by the way would take an awful lot to do, even if you were a god plotting the emergence of every component of every subatomic particle in the universe would be pretty time consuming, you'd need an entire planet of gods with nothing better to do than create this universe for giggles.

If it where a naturally occurring process and there was some unknown reason that these things would interact with our universe then, like I said, it would all be white noise and static, without any order.
So order to something that requires none implies intelligence.

If for some unknown highly improbable reason, a group of this theoretical energy that comprises quarks, that makes up subatomic particles that makes up atoms that makes up chemical compounds would for some reason decide all by itself that it would like to arrange itself into a nice wooden coffee table for a microsecond, then there is no reason that it should ever do so again, much less in any sort of order that we perceive as time and do so continuously so as to appear to a constant object.

It might as well do this on April 15th 2004 and again on September 21st of 1,000,000 BC, somebody would need to put the frames in order so we could rest our drink on the coffee table without it randomly popping around all space/time by itself, causing a rather nasty stain on the carpet.

But I suppose this is the bases for my theory, that there is no reason that all this should be here the way it is unless somebody or something intended it to be.

I'm also leaning towards the belief that this consciousness that decides where everything goes and when is us, but that would take a lot longer to explain.

That we seem to be stuck in a feedback loop, where we misperceive the universe and it nicely rearranges itself out of our misperceptions, leaving us to misperceive yet again.

That consciousness creates reality or rather our consciousness determines what reality will appear to be.
But then the unanswered question is what is this reality and why does it continue to make itself into things that we don't really want?

But then again there is the idea that the a race of banana shaped trans dimensional hyper beings created this universe to imprison us all in so we stop mucking up the real universe that they believe rightly belongs to them, HA!

[Guest]

a race of banana shaped trans dimensional hyper beings created this universe

I'm afraid you have it all wrong. That hypothesis was designed to misguide us from the truth. My father (a trans dimensional avacardo) started it all because someone from this universe ate his wife, my mother. The story was meant to protect us TDA's (trans dimensional avacardos) from the evil avacardo eaters from this universe. Father didn't want me to get eaten like my mother.

Now you and I have let the cat out of the bag, STOP EATING AVACARDOS NOW!!! Please, before I run out of relatives to send me b'day presents. Bananas are much better for you. But don't eat the straight ones, they will give you gas.

[Guest]

This is my view on the theory, until scientists pull a "the truman show" and run face first into the "end" of space it is never ending. Yes the universe with all the stars and planets may end, but how do you know. With an infinate amount of space, how do you know there may not have been 2 big bangs, or heck maybe even 100 of them. Which brings the debate over how long has "space" even been around. you cannot tell me that some of you scientific type dont agree that if it can happen once, even if it is a one in a trillion chance, eventually that trillian is going to come around again, esepcially in since as far as i know space has ALWAYS existed, before earth and and after earth, it will always exist and always has. Think about that. Its kinda like i belive that somewhere there is life out there. Not "aliens" like we see on tv but people like us. scientits say that it is very unlikely that another planet can sustain life, but in another universe, or maybe even in another galexy, how do they know. like i said, with something that LITERALLY lasts forever, eventually that 1 in a trillian will come bace to the 1.

[Guest]

the theory of infinite number of universes seem to be flawed.

if it is infinite, it means there're infinite possibilites, and there may be a universe in which I win a jackpot everyday !! =D

[Guest]

I really wish people would stop saying that the universe is infinite.
it really isn't.

The big bang blew up and all the starts and galaxies flew out into this big ball.
Yes, sure it is big, very big, mind bogglingly large but it is not infinite.
There are X amount of galaxies and X amount of starts,
they could be counted and yes there would be an awful lot of them but any number that can be counted to, no matter how large is not infinite.

The universe is in fact finite, it can be defined,
Sure not by you or be or anybody who will likely read this message board to tell us exactly how many stars their actually is, but they could be counted, there are a set number of them.

Oh yea, sure, while you are counting them, cause it would take such a long time, some would die and others would be born but that's besides the fact.
At the present moment there IS a fixed number of galaxies and stars.
and the universe is a set distance across in diameter which could be measured by some means.

So please stop saying that the universe is infinite because it is NOT, it just isn't.

but eventuly all the gravity will cause all of the planets to collide known as the big crunch